Ajoutée par OpenOmniProductions le 15 oct. 2010
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/10/wilders_not_guilty_of_inciting.php
Wilders not guilty on all counts - Update
Friday 15 October 2010
The public prosecution department on Friday afternoon stated that Geert Wilders is not guilty of discriminating against Muslims. Earlier on Friday it announced he should also be found not guilty of inciting hatred.
Prosecutors Birgit van Roessel and Paul Velleman reached their conclusions after a careful reading of interviews with and articles by the anti-Islam politician and a viewing of his anti-Koran film Fitna.
They said comments about banning the Koran can be discriminatory, but because Wilders wants to pursue a ban on democratic lines, there is no question of incitement to discrimination 'as laid down in law'.
On the comparison of the Koran with Mein Kampf, the prosecutors said the comparison was 'crude but that did not make it punishable'.
Dealing earlier on Friday with incitement to hatred, Van Roessel and Velleman said some comments could incite hatred against Muslims if taken out of context, but if the complete text is considered, it can be seen that Wilders is against the growing influence of Islam and not against Muslims per sé.
On Tuesday, the prosecutors said the MP should not be found guilty of group insult.
The public prosecution department was forced to take the case by the high court after anti-racism campaigners protested at its refusal to prosecute Wilders.
Wilders not guilty on all counts - Update
Friday 15 October 2010
The public prosecution department on Friday afternoon stated that Geert Wilders is not guilty of discriminating against Muslims. Earlier on Friday it announced he should also be found not guilty of inciting hatred.
Prosecutors Birgit van Roessel and Paul Velleman reached their conclusions after a careful reading of interviews with and articles by the anti-Islam politician and a viewing of his anti-Koran film Fitna.
They said comments about banning the Koran can be discriminatory, but because Wilders wants to pursue a ban on democratic lines, there is no question of incitement to discrimination 'as laid down in law'.
On the comparison of the Koran with Mein Kampf, the prosecutors said the comparison was 'crude but that did not make it punishable'.
Dealing earlier on Friday with incitement to hatred, Van Roessel and Velleman said some comments could incite hatred against Muslims if taken out of context, but if the complete text is considered, it can be seen that Wilders is against the growing influence of Islam and not against Muslims per sé.
On Tuesday, the prosecutors said the MP should not be found guilty of group insult.
The public prosecution department was forced to take the case by the high court after anti-racism campaigners protested at its refusal to prosecute Wilders.
Voir les vidéos sur ce site
Par Jeannot le 13 octobre 2010
«Le coran est pire que Mein Kampf, car Mein Kampf est
un livre politique, alors que le coran est un mélange de politique et de
religieux. Il est plus facile de surmonter une idéologie politique qu’une
idéologie politique emballée dans une idéologie religieuse. »
«Quand j’avais huit ans, si l’on me demandait :
“préfères-tu un bonbon ou tuer un juif”, je répondais : “tuer un juif”».
Wafa Sultan,
extrait du procès Wilders
Un moment symbolique fort — et selon nous
capital — au procès de Geert Wilders.
Pour la
première fois, une cour de justice occidentale accepte d’entendre
officiellement l’avis d’une femme de culture musulmane sur l’islam (Wafa Sultan
est d’origine syrienne), en tant qu’experte reconnue par le tribunal. La cour
lit devant les caméras la déclaration de Wafa Sultan et son analyse de la vraie
nature de l’islam. Wafa Sultan y apporte un soutien sans nuance à Geert Wilders
et reprend ses mots : oui, le coran est un livre fasciste. Non,
l’islam n’est pas compatible avec les valeurs des sociétés occidentales. Et
non, il n’existe pas d’islam modéré.
Mise à jour le 14/11/2010
vidéos sous-titrée en français
Merci à Rijo.
Fin de la
mise à jour
En anglais en deux parties. Tradution en
français et transcription en anglais sous les vidéos.
TRADUCTION
Je suis née
et ai été élevée en tant que musulmane. J’ai pratiqué l’islam pendant trente
ans. Je suis née en Syrie et de ma première année d’école à la remise de mon
diplôme universitaire, j’ai étudié le Coran deux heures par jour. J’ai étudié
la médecine à l’Université d’Aleppo en Syrie, puis j’ai reçu mon diplôme de
docteur en médecine en 1981 et me suis spécialisée en tant que psychiatre
hospitalier durant quatre années. J’ai donc travaillé en psychiatrie jusqu’en
1989, l’année de mon départ pour les Etats-Unis d’Amérique. Depuis mon arrivée
aux E.-U., je me suis impliqué dans l’islam au niveau scientifique, car, aux
E.-U., j’ai pu faire mes recherches sur ce sujet librement, de façon
indépendante.
Lorsque je
travaillais, en Syrie, en tant que médecin, j’étais alors tellement endoctrinée
que je ne pouvais pas concevoir par moi-même ce qui n’allait pas dans ma propre
religion. Pourtant, j’avais de nombreuses interrogations, mais je n’osais pas
les formuler, ni même faire des recherches. Cependant, aux E.-U., j’ai pu le
faire. Mes recherches scientifiques consistent à comparer les sciences
médicales, la psychiatrie, et ce que dit l’islam. J’ai cherché des explications
à l’arriération qui prévaut dans le monde islamique. La croyance mène à
certains comportements.
Toutes les
actions sont le produit de ce que nous apprenons. Ce qui est généralement le
cas, et spécifiquement dans l’islam. Si vous me questionniez sur le soi-disant
débat inné/acquis, je suis plutôt du côté de l’acquis. Il y a à mon avis 50% «
d’inné » et 50% «d’acquis ». Mais, au fil du temps, l’acquis s’inscrit dans le
code génétique, et l’islam existe déjà depuis 1400 ans. Vous me questionnez au
sujet de mes publications : je suis une écrivain renommée dans le monde arabe.
J’ai publié trois livres et pour un aperçu de mes livres, je vous renvoie à mon
site internet.
Vous me
demandez si je connais Geert Wilders. Je le connais et je l’ai rencontré à deux
reprises lors d’évènements aux E.-U où il devait prononcer un discours. L’un de
ces évènements a été organisé par une organisation appelée, il me semble, «
Stand with us » (en français, « Rejoignez-nous »). L’autre a lieu à Los
Angeles. Les deux évènements ont eu lieu en 2009, il y a environ un an. J’avais
vu auparavant le film « Fitna » : j’étais donc au courant du message que veut
faire passer Geert Wilders. Lors de ces évènements, je l’ai salué et je lui
serré la main. Je lui ai dit que j’étais fier de lui. Pourquoi ? Parce qu’il
est assez courageux pour dire la vérité. Vous me demandez quelle est cette «
vérité ». Que le problème auquel est confronté le monde actuellement est
profondément enraciné dans les enseignements islamiques, dans le Coran et dans
la biographie de Muhammad.
Vous
demandez quel est le problème. [réponse] Que les Musulmans sont encouragés à
tuer des non-musulmans. Le coran dit que Muhammad doit être le modèle pour tout
musulmans. Vous me questionnez à propos de la « International Free Press
Society » (Société Internationale de la Presse Libre) du Danemark. Oui, j’ai
oublié de mentionner que j’ai aussi été invitée au Danemark, en 2009 je crois.
J’y ai tenu un discours, tout comme G. Wilders. Je l’ai aussi salué là-bas. Il
s’en est allé immédiatement à la fin de son discours, donc je n’ai pas pu
converser plus longtemps avec lui. Vous me dite que vous avez reçu une lettre
que l’avocat de la partie plaignante vous a remise, qui est datée du 27 mai
2007 et à laquelle est jointe une photographie sur laquelle on peut me voir en
compagnie de G. Wilders. Cela peut être vrai. Vous demandez à quelle occasion
cette photo a été prise.
Cela peut
être au moment où j’ai prononcé mon discours et où G. Wilders a dû un moment
que ce soit son tour. En tous les cas, je n’ai pas participé à un débat avec
lui. Je ne peux nier que je soutiens G. Wilders. Vous me dites que je suis
citée à quelques reprises dans cette lettre et me demandez de lire lesdits
passages et de vous dire s’ils sont authentiques. En effet, Tous ces passages sont
absolument authentiques. La seule chose qui soit erronée est que je n’ai pas
voulu dire que l’Occident devait lâcher une bombe atomique sur le monde arabe
(passage n°7). Néanmoins, j’ai dit que l’Occident se devait d’exercer beaucoup
de pression. C’est-à-dire, des pressions économiques et politiques. Toute ma
famille est musulmane ; je ne souhaite en aucun cas qu’on lâche une bombe
atomique sur ma famille.
Pour le
reste, je maintiens les passages mentionnés dans la lettre. Je ne connais pas
personnellement le professor Jansen ou Simon Admiraal. M. Wilders et moi même
ne nous sommes pas mis d’accord sur les déclarations que je fais aujourd’hui.
L’avocat de M. Wilders m’a appelé pour me demander si je voulais témoigner, et
j’ai dit oui. Le procureur (l’avocat des plaignants ?) ne m’a jamais contacté
et personne ne m’a jamais dit ce que je devais dire. Mon message est toujours
le même.
[Le juge
reprend la parole en son nom et donne ensuite des extrait du témoignage de Mme
Sultan]
Dans la citation à comparaître, Mme Sultan dit :
« Vous me demandez si je suis tombé sur certains propos que M. Wilders auraient prononcés et qui sont erronés, incorrects. Non, il n’y a rien d’incorrect dans ce qu’a pu dire M. Wilders. »
Dans la citation à comparaître, Mme Sultan dit :
« Vous me demandez si je suis tombé sur certains propos que M. Wilders auraient prononcés et qui sont erronés, incorrects. Non, il n’y a rien d’incorrect dans ce qu’a pu dire M. Wilders. »
Ensuite, Mme
Sultan est entendue sur un certain nombre de citations. A partir de maintenant,
je vais citer les passages [c’est le juge qui parle], puis lire les
explications données par Mme Sultan.
• Premiere citation : « L’islam dominera, soumettra et
cherchera à détruire notre société occidentale. »
Mme. Sultan
déclare que cette citation est juste. Dans le coran, il est dit que le monde
islamique cherche à dominer. Les lois de Mahomet sont la preuve que l’islam
veut dominer le monde. A la mort de mahomet, il ne restait aucun ennemi vivant.
Il avait massacré tous ceux qui étaient contre lui. C’est écrit dans la
biographie de mahomet, qui a été rédigée dans les deux premiers siècles après
sa mort. Il est mort en 670, ou au 7e siècle, de toutes les façons.
• Citation suivante: “arrêtez l’islamisation”.
D’après Ms.
Sultan, “les valeurs islamiques sont incompatibles avec les valeurs
occidentales. L’islam n’accorde aucune valeur à la vie humaine. Les musulmans
sont sur terre pour tuer ou être tués au nom d’allah, pour la gloire d’allah,
pour répandre l’islam et alors vous recevrez un billet gratuit pour le
paradis”. “Vous me demandez”, dit-elle, “comment les musulmans en Occident font
en sorte que l’islam domine : ils demandent d’abord aux non-musulmans de se
convertir à l’islam, d’abord d’une manière pacifique, mais s’ils refusent, ils
les tueront.”
• Citation suivante : “un islam modéré n’existe pas”.
Mme Sultan :
« en effet, en Syrie, je n’ai jamais entendu parler d’un islam modéré ou d’un
islam strict. Il n’y a qu’un islam et c’est l’islam dont je parle. Récemment,
le premier ministre turc a aussi déclaré que “islam modéré” était une
expression horrible.
• Citation suivante: “Et l’islam se trouve dans le
coran et nulle part ailleurs que dans le coran”.
Mme Sultan :
“c’est exact, Ce sont les paroles d’allah.
• Citation suivante: “et le coran est le Mein Kampf
d’une religion qui cherche à éliminer les autres.”
Mme Sultan:
“Je suis assez d’accord avec cela. Le coran est pire que Mein Kampf, car Mein
Kampf est un livre politique, alors que le coran est un mélange de politique et
de religieux. A mon avis, il est plus facile de surmonter une idéologie
politique qu’une idéologie politique emballée dans une idéologie religieuse.
• Citation suivante: “L’islam fasciste et ce livre
fasciste”.
Mme Sultan:
C’est exact. Je vais donner un exemple d’un verset coranique:”Je frapperai les
coeurs des incroyants avec la terreur. Je leur trancherai la tête et les bouts
des doigts.” N’est-ce pas du fascisme ?
Mme Sultan
ajoute: je ne sais pas de tête où se trouve ce verset.
Vous me dites qu’il existe un courant aux Pays Bas qui explique ce verset de
telle manière qu’il ne serait valable qu’en temps de guerre. Non, pour les
musulmans, le coran est [valable] pour toute époque et tout lieu.
Selon les musulmans, c’est la parole absolue d’allah et tout musulman doit s’y conformer. Le procureur me dit que tous les musulmans ne se comportent pas selon le coran et m’en demande la raison. c’est parce qu’ils ne connaissent pas suffisamment le coran.
Selon les musulmans, c’est la parole absolue d’allah et tout musulman doit s’y conformer. Le procureur me dit que tous les musulmans ne se comportent pas selon le coran et m’en demande la raison. c’est parce qu’ils ne connaissent pas suffisamment le coran.
Le coran est
écrit en arabe et 80% des musulmans ne sont pas arabes. Le coran n’a jamais été
traduit d’une façon correcte et honnête. Les traductions sont souvent plus
douces - édulcorées, dit-elle - que le texte arabe original.”
Le
terrorisme est plus lié aux arabes musulmans qu’aux autres musulmans, car les
arabes musulmans sont bien conscients de ce qui est écrit dans le coran. S’ils
appliquent strictement le message, cela peut conduire au terrorisme contre
l’Occident. L’Afghanistan n’a jamais été terroriste, jusqu’à ce que les
mujahideen arabes arrivent et l’Indonésie, il y a 30 ans, était
différente.
Les
Saoudiens ont arabisé l’Indonésie avec l’argent du pétrole. Maintenant, ils
sont plus wahabites et plus strictes que les Saoudiens eux-mêmes. La citation
suivante, qui est une citation du Prof. Israëli, avec laquelle je suis
totalement d’accord, dit qu’Allah vous aidera à vous multiplier, et en étant
présent en plus grand nombre, vous l’emporterez sur les non-musulmans.
Pénétration, propagande et changements démographiques (excusez-moi) je lis ceci,
car cela fait partie d’une citation: pénétration, conversion et changements
démographiques.
Et puis Mme
Sultan dit: “De cela, j’en ai été témoin, à la fois en Syrie et aux
États-Unis.” et comme elle évoque ensuite ses propres expériences, le juge
d’instruction lui a fait prêter serment en tant que témoin. “En 1990,
j’étais nouvelles aux États-Unis et on m’a offert 1500 $ par mois pour
me voiler et enseigner dans une école arabo-islamique
l’arabe et l’ étudesde l’Islam. Je ne l’ai pas fait. Qui me l’avait demandé ?
Une femme libanaise qui était voilée elle-même.
Elle m’a dit
qu’elle recrutait des femmes musulmanes et qu’elle s’était voilée une fois aux
USA. Vous m’avez demandé au nom de qui elle m’a demandé cela. Je crois un
groupe saoudien, mais je n’en suis pas sûre. A ce propos, après le 11 septembre
2001, cette femme libanaise a à nouveau enlevé son foulard. Ce n’était donc pas
seulement une proposition d’emploi d’enseignant. Dans mon milieu musulman aux
USA, des femmes musulmanes étaient envoyées pour recruter. J’ai entendu cela de
musulmans qui avaient vécu aux USA depuis longtemps que moi.
L’étape
suivante consistait à convertir des non-musulmans. J’ai également entendu dire
que tout homme qui ajoutait le nom de Muhammad à son propre nom recevait 1000$.
Vous me demandez de qui. Des Saoudiens je suppose. On ne me l’a jamais dit
exactement. J’ai entendu dire cela dans ma communauté musulmane. Un exemple de
cela est le “sniper de Washington” qui a abattu des gens il y a quelques
années. Il avait un nom américain et avait ajouté le nom de Muhammad. Je
suppose qu’il a reçu ces 1000 $.
• Citation suivante : “Les Pays Bas comme un pays
de mission islamique”. Chaque
pays dans le monde est considéré par les musulmans comme un pays à
conquérir pour l’islam. Je mentionne les USA comme un exemple. Ils tentent
d’infiltrer la société américaine. Par exemple, un professeur d’histoire dans
mon quartier a organisé un projet scolaire: toute personne qui l’effectuait
pendant une journée de jeûne de ramadan recevait 10 points supplémentaires.
C’était dans une école publique. Quand le procureur m’a demandé si ce
professeur était musulman, j’ai répondu : je ne sais pas.
• Citation suivante : “L’islam est une religion
violente.” - Mme Sultan : «c’est vrai. Quand vous lisez dans le
Coran, ‘Coupez leur tête et les bouts de leurs doigts ‘, vous ne pouvez pas
parler d’une religion de paix. Enfant, en Syrie, on m’a dit avec fierté que
Mahomet avait tué 800 juifs en une seule nuit. Il passa la nuit avec une juive,
dont il venait lui-même de tuer le père et les frères. »
A huit ans,
si l’on me demandait : « Préfères-tu un bonbon ou tuer un juif », je répondais
: « tuer un juif. », dit Mme Sultan.
Mahomet
débuta par la Mecque où, en l’espace de treize ans, il a converti en prêchant
150 personnes. Puis il se mit en route vers Médine où il devint violent. En
neuf ans, il tua toutes les personnes qui étaient contre lui. A la Mecque, le coran
est encore quelque peu pacifique, mais une fois à Médine, ce n’est plus du tout
le cas.
Vous devez
être familière avec le terme « abrogation ». Les versets les plus récents et
aussi les plus violents sont à préférer aux versets les plus anciens. Les versets
plus récents remplacent les anciens versets. Je vais vous donner un exemple.
De nos
jours, ceci est valide : « Combats les non-croyants qui ne croient pas en Allah
et en son messager jusqu’à ce qu’ils paient la dîme ou jusqu’à ce qu’ils
meurent. » Alors qu’avant, le sens était différent : « Parlemente avec un
non-croyant et laisse-le seul pendant un moment. »
Prochain passage : « Le Coran, débarrassé de tous les versets de haine, aurait la taille d’un canard. »
Prochain passage : « Le Coran, débarrassé de tous les versets de haine, aurait la taille d’un canard. »
Mme
Sultan affirme la chose suivante à propos de ce passage : Je suis d’accord avec
ce passage. Je me base sur ce que je sais du Coran et sur ce que j’en ai
appris. Concernant une question du plaignant, je dois dire que je ne peux pas
porter de jugement sur les jeunes Marocains vivant au Pays-Bas.
Elle déclare
ensuite, à propos du film « Fitna » : J’ai vu le film plusieurs fois, mais pas
en préparation de cette audience. J’ai vu le film avec des sous-titres en
anglais ; je parle arabe. En ce qui concerne la question de l’avocat
[Moszckowicz], vous me demandez si le livre que l’on voit au début du film est
bien le Coran ; à cela, je vous réponds oui, sans aucun doute.
Vous me
demandez de traduire le mot « Irhab » : terrorisme. Vous me dites que dans le
film, on peut voir les musulmans qui s’expriment de façon négative sur les
Juifs et les homosexuels et vous me demandez si cette perception est la
règle de l’Islam. Oui, c’est exactement ça.
Le
comportement dans le film correspond aux enseignements coraniques. Les images
correspondent aux textes du coran. Il y a verset coranique qui dit : « Attrape
le non-croyant, même s’il est dans une tour. » Il y a des Musulmans qui croient
voir dans ce verset du Coran une corrélation avec les attentats du 11 septembre
2001 aux Etats-Unis. En outre, les violences faites aux femmes et aux
homosexuels sont des pratiques courantes dans l’Islam.
Cela découle
de la doctrine. Dans le coran, par exemple, il est déclaré : « Bats ta femme si
elle refuse de dormir à tes côtés. ». Dans la version anglaise, il est dit : «
Bats-la gentiment. » C’est ce que je veux par « traduction édulcorée ». Dans la
version arabe originale du Coran, il n’est pas du tout dit que tu dois la
battre « gentiment ».
Quant aux
homosexuels, il est dit que vous devez les amener en haut d’une montagne
et les jeter en bas. Je pense que c’est la charia. Dans la charia, il est même
dit qu’une femme qui est vierge et qui est condamnée à mort doit tout d’abord
être violée. Ceci d’après Mme Sultan.
Puis aux
questions posées par le procureur, Mme Sultan a répondu ceci : Vous me
demandez, A quel moment j’ai eu mes premiers doutes sur ce que l’islam
enseigne. J’ai rencontré mon mari en 1975. Il est né en Syrie et
originellement musulman, mais il a abjuré l’islam . Après la mort de son
père, il a été élevé par un ami chrétien de celui-ci. Dès notre première
rencontre, il a essayé de me faire changer, mais j’étais têtue comme un rocher.
En 1978, j’ai été témoin de l’assassinat de mon professeur par les Frères
Musulmans. Ils ont criblé son corps de balles en criant “Allahu Akhbar, Allahu
Akhbar”.
Par la suite j’ai commencé à me poser des questions. Je n’osais pas douter de l’Islam, mais j’avais des questions du genre “quel est donc ce dieu Allah qui permet ce genre de crime?” Est-ce que ces personnes ont mal compris l’islam, ou y-a-t-il un problème avec l’islam lui-même? Vous me dites qu’il semble qu’il y ait une contradiction entre l’islam qui opprimerait les femmes et moi-même qui ai reçu une éducation comme psychiatre. La Syrie est un pays relativement laïque.
Comme je l’ai également décrit dans mon livre, j’ai travaillé aux Etats-Unis au début comme caissière dans une station service. Là, en tant que caissière, j’y étais mieux traitée qu’en tant que psychiatre en Syrie. Par exemple, en Syrie, j’ai été harcelée par des collègues masculins. Je ne pouvais rien faire contre ça, parce que, selon les règles islamiques, en tant que femme vous avez besoin de présenter quatre témoins, tel qu’il est prescrit dans le Coran. Si je n’avais pas été capable de les trouver, j’aurais été accusée d’adultère. Aux États-Unis, je n’étais même pas harcelée, et si je l’avais été, j’aurais pu entamer des poursuites judiciaires.
Je vous donne un autre exemple. Mon frère, qui est de deux ans mon cadet, n’a même pas terminé ses études secondaires, mais en l’absence de mon mari, je devais lui demander sa permission pour pouvoir sortir me promener. Aux États-Unis, ce n’est bien sûr pas nécessaire. Vous me demandez en quoi ces différences sont à mettre en corrélations avec l’islam, et non pas par exemple avec les différences culturelles et géographiques. La manière dont les femmes sont traitées est décrite dans le Coran. Si votre femme ne suit pas vos instructions: battez-la.
Dans le Coran il est également mentionné que les femmes sont trop déficientes mentalement pour pouvoir prendre soin d’elles-mêmes. Vous me demandez si je dois me soucier de ma sécurité par rapport au message que je transmets. Certainement. Je vis dans la clandestinité. J’étais consciente du prix que j’aurais à payer pour faire passer mon message. Pourtant, je suis heureuse de la vie que je mène.
Je reçois des menaces de mort quotidiennement. Des courriers électroniques par exemple qui disent: “Nous savons où est l’école de vos enfants.” La plupart des menaces sont en arabe et anonymes. Un jour, un groupe qui s’appelle “Les soldats d’Allah” a sorti une liste de 30 noms, dont le mien et de quatre autres personnes vivant aux États-Unis. Ils ont prononcé une fatwa [de mort] contre ces personnes.
-Et cette déclaration, est aussi soussignée par Mme Sultan. Je regarde rapidement l’horloge. Je continue à lire la déclaration, au moins la petite partie que nous avons reçu de Maître Moszkowicz, qui a été écrite par Raphaël Israeli, et je crois que votre demande est de prendre cette partie du dossier que je dois lire .
-[M. Moszkowicz] “S’il vous plait”.
-Je vais vous lire cette partie. Je la vois pour la première fois, alors j’espère que vous me pardonnerez si je ne le lis pas bien.
-Vous êtes pardonné d’avance.
“A mon avis, il est correct d’affirmer que l’islam cherche à maîtriser et à dominer les autres civilisations.
C’est sur la base de la doctrine du djihad, qui stipule que l’islam est supérieur, et qu’il est nécessaire de soumettre les autres religions pratiquées par ces civilisations. Voir pour référence le dernier livre de Mark Durie. [Le troisième choix: l’islam, la dhimmitude et la liberté ]…
Par la suite j’ai commencé à me poser des questions. Je n’osais pas douter de l’Islam, mais j’avais des questions du genre “quel est donc ce dieu Allah qui permet ce genre de crime?” Est-ce que ces personnes ont mal compris l’islam, ou y-a-t-il un problème avec l’islam lui-même? Vous me dites qu’il semble qu’il y ait une contradiction entre l’islam qui opprimerait les femmes et moi-même qui ai reçu une éducation comme psychiatre. La Syrie est un pays relativement laïque.
Comme je l’ai également décrit dans mon livre, j’ai travaillé aux Etats-Unis au début comme caissière dans une station service. Là, en tant que caissière, j’y étais mieux traitée qu’en tant que psychiatre en Syrie. Par exemple, en Syrie, j’ai été harcelée par des collègues masculins. Je ne pouvais rien faire contre ça, parce que, selon les règles islamiques, en tant que femme vous avez besoin de présenter quatre témoins, tel qu’il est prescrit dans le Coran. Si je n’avais pas été capable de les trouver, j’aurais été accusée d’adultère. Aux États-Unis, je n’étais même pas harcelée, et si je l’avais été, j’aurais pu entamer des poursuites judiciaires.
Je vous donne un autre exemple. Mon frère, qui est de deux ans mon cadet, n’a même pas terminé ses études secondaires, mais en l’absence de mon mari, je devais lui demander sa permission pour pouvoir sortir me promener. Aux États-Unis, ce n’est bien sûr pas nécessaire. Vous me demandez en quoi ces différences sont à mettre en corrélations avec l’islam, et non pas par exemple avec les différences culturelles et géographiques. La manière dont les femmes sont traitées est décrite dans le Coran. Si votre femme ne suit pas vos instructions: battez-la.
Dans le Coran il est également mentionné que les femmes sont trop déficientes mentalement pour pouvoir prendre soin d’elles-mêmes. Vous me demandez si je dois me soucier de ma sécurité par rapport au message que je transmets. Certainement. Je vis dans la clandestinité. J’étais consciente du prix que j’aurais à payer pour faire passer mon message. Pourtant, je suis heureuse de la vie que je mène.
Je reçois des menaces de mort quotidiennement. Des courriers électroniques par exemple qui disent: “Nous savons où est l’école de vos enfants.” La plupart des menaces sont en arabe et anonymes. Un jour, un groupe qui s’appelle “Les soldats d’Allah” a sorti une liste de 30 noms, dont le mien et de quatre autres personnes vivant aux États-Unis. Ils ont prononcé une fatwa [de mort] contre ces personnes.
-Et cette déclaration, est aussi soussignée par Mme Sultan. Je regarde rapidement l’horloge. Je continue à lire la déclaration, au moins la petite partie que nous avons reçu de Maître Moszkowicz, qui a été écrite par Raphaël Israeli, et je crois que votre demande est de prendre cette partie du dossier que je dois lire .
-[M. Moszkowicz] “S’il vous plait”.
-Je vais vous lire cette partie. Je la vois pour la première fois, alors j’espère que vous me pardonnerez si je ne le lis pas bien.
-Vous êtes pardonné d’avance.
“A mon avis, il est correct d’affirmer que l’islam cherche à maîtriser et à dominer les autres civilisations.
C’est sur la base de la doctrine du djihad, qui stipule que l’islam est supérieur, et qu’il est nécessaire de soumettre les autres religions pratiquées par ces civilisations. Voir pour référence le dernier livre de Mark Durie. [Le troisième choix: l’islam, la dhimmitude et la liberté ]…
Un grand merci à Mannala, Rosalie, Gropepere pour
la traduction.
TRANSCRIPTION
I was born and raised as a Muslim. I have practiced Islam for 30 years. I
was born in Syria, and from my first school class until my graduation I took
Qur’an lessons, two hours daily. I studied medicine at the University of Aleppo
in Syria, and graduated in 1981 as a medical doctor, and for four years
specialized as a psychiatrist in a hospital. I worked as a psychiatrist in
Syria until 1989, the year of my emigration to the U.S. Since my coming to the
U.S. I have been involved at a scientific level with Islam. For in the U.S. I
can do that free and independently.
When I was working in Syria, even as a medical doctor, I was so
indoctrinated, that I was unable to think myself what was wrong with our
religion. I had many questions but was afraid to ask them. To research them. In
the U.S. I do can do that. My scientific work consists of making comparisons
between medicinal science, psychiatry, and Islam. I seek an explanation for the
backwardness of the Islamic world. Belief leads to certain behaviors.
All actions are the product of what we learn. Which is generally the case,
but also specifically for Islam. If you ask me whether in the so-called nature
/ nurture debate I’d be more on the nurture side, I say, my starting point is
50% nature and 50% nurture. But over time, nurture is also becomes encoded in
DNA, and Islam has already existed for over 1400 years. You ask me for my
publications: I am a well-known writer in the Arab world. I published three
books, and for an overview I refer to my website.
You ask me if I know Geert Wilders. I know him and I have met him twice at
an event in the U.S. where he gave speeches. One event was organized by an
organization I think is called “Stand with us’, the other was in Los Angeles.
Both events were in 2009, about one year ago. Longer ago I had seen the film
Fitna: I thus was familiar with Wilders’ message. At those events, I greeted
Wilders and shook his hand. I told him I am proud of him. Why? Because he is
brave enough to tell the truth. You ask me what that ‘truth’ contains. That the
problem the whole world is facing is deeply rooted in Islamic teachings, the
Qur’an and the biography of Muhammad.
You ask me what the problem is. [answer] That Muslims are aroused to kill
non-Muslims. The Qur’an says that Muhammad must be the role-model for every
Muslim-man. You ask me about the International Free Press Society in Denmark.
Yes, I just forgot [to mention] that, I had been invited in Denmark, I think
also in 2009. I have given a speech there, and so did Wilders. I then also
greeted him. He departed immediately after his speech, so I then had no
extensive conversation with him. You tell me you received a letter from the
counselors of the complaining party, dated May 27, 2010, to which a photograph
is attached on which Wilders and I are pictured. That may be right. You ask me
at which event the photo was taken.
It may be that time I gave a speech and Wilders had to wait a short while
until it was his turn. In any case I have not been in a discussion panel with
him. I cannot deny that I am one of Wilders’ supporters. You tell me that in
this letter I am quoted a few times, and ask me to read these quotes and tell
whether these quotes are correct. All quotes are consistent with much
certainty. The only thing is that I did not mean to say that the West should
drop an atomic bomb on the Arab world, quote number 7. But I did say that the
West must exert a lot of pressure. With that I mean economic and political
pressure. My entire tribe, my family, is Muslim.I don’t want to ask the West to
drop an atomic bomb on my tribe.
For the rest I stand fully behind the quotes mentioned in this letter. I am
not familiar with Professor Jansen or Simon Admiraal. I have not been in touch
with Wilders about the statements to be made by me today. Wilders’ lawyer
called me asking if I was willing to testify, and I said yes. The prosecutor
has never contacted me, and no one ever told me what to say.
My message is always similar. On the summons she says: You ask me whether
in general I have come across quotes Wilders is alleged to have made that are
incorrect. No, there is nothing incorrect in the statements that Wilders is
alleged have made. Thus said Ms. Sultan. Then she is heard about a number of
quotes; from here I will first introduce the quote, and then the clarification
she gives. First quote: “ Islam will dominate, submit, and seeks to destroy our
Western civilization.” Ms. Sultan says this is correct.
In the Qur’an it says the Islamic world wants to dominate. Muhammad’s laws
are proof that the Islam wants to dominate the world. When Muhammad died, there
was no enemy left. He had slain everyone who was against him. That is written
in the biography of Muhammad, which was written in the first two centuries
after his death. He died in 670, or, in any case, in the 7th century. Next
quote: “Stop Islamization”.
Islamic values do not match the Western values. Islam attaches no value to
human life. Muslims are on earth to kill or be slain in the name of Allah, to
the benefit of Allah, to spread Islam, and then you get a free ticket to
heaven, according to Ms. Sultan. You ask me how a Muslim in the West wants to
make sure that Islam will prevail: They ask non-Muslims to convert to Islam,
initially in a peaceful way, but if they refuse, they will kill them.
Next quote. “A moderate Islam does not exist”. Ms. Sultan: Indeed, in Syria
I never heard of a moderate Islam or a strict Islam. There is only one Islam
and that is the Islam I’m talking about. Recently, the Prime Minister of Turkey
also said that. He said the “moderate Islam” is an ugly phrase.
Next quote: “And Islam is the Qur’an and nothing but the Qur’an.” Ms.
Sultan: That’s right, those are the words of Allah.
Next quote: “And the Qur’an is the Mein Kampf of a religion that seeks to
eliminate others”. Ms. Sultan: To this I agree to some extent. The Qur’an is
worse than Mein Kampf, because Mein Kampf is a political book, the Qur’an is a
mix of politics and religion. In my opinion, it is easier to overcome a
political ideology than a political ideology that is packaged as a religious
ideology.
Next quote: “The fascist Islam and that fascist book”. Ms. Sultan says:
That is correct. I’ll give an example of a Qur’anic verse: ‘I will strike
terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. I’ will chop off their heads and
fingertips’. Is not that fascism? as Ms. Sultan said, I don’t know the location
of this Qur’anic verse out of memory. You tell me that there is a stream in the
Netherlands that explains this verse in such a way that it would only be valid
in times of war. No, to Muslims the Qur’an is for every age and every place.
According to the Muslims it is the absolute word of Allah and every Muslim
should behave in accordance with it. As Ms. Sultan said. The prosecutor tells
me that not all Muslims behave according to this, and asks me why that so. This
is because they don’t know the Qur’an well enough. The Qur’an is written in
Arabic, and 80% of the Muslims are not Arab. The Qur’an has never been
translated in a good and fair manner. That is because in the Islam it is
forbidden to translate the Qur’an. The translations are often somewhat softer —
this she calls “sugar coated” — than the Arabic original.
Terrorism is more related to Arab muslims than other Muslims, because the
Arab Muslims are well aware of what is written in the Qur’an. If they apply the
core strictly, that can lead to terrorism against the West. Afghanistan was
never terroristic, until the Arab mujahideen got there; and Indonesia 30 years
ago was a different country.
The Saudis have Arabized Indonesia with their oil money. Now they are more
Wahhabi, more strict Islamic than the Saudis themselves. The following quote,
which is a quote from Professor Israëli. I totally agree with it. Muhammad says
Allah will help you with the multiplying of your people, and being present in
larger numbers — outnumber — than the non-Muslims. Penetration, propaganda,
conversion and demographic changes. [sorry, I read this, because it’s part of a
quote]: Penetration, propaganda, conversion and demographic changes.
And then Ms. Sultan says: Of this I have been a witness, both in Syria and
in the U.S. And since she then mentions her own experiences, the examining
magistrate swore her in as witness. In 1990 I was new in the U.S. I was offered
$ 1500 per month to cover myself and to teach on an Islamic school Arab
language and Islam studies. I have not done that. Who had asked me? A Lebanese
woman who also had covered herself.
She told me that she recruits Muslim women and that she covered herself
once in the U.S. You ask me in whose name she requested this of me. I think a
Saudi group, but I’m not sure of that. Incidentally, after September 11, 2001,
this Lebanese woman took off her head covering again. It therefore was not just
an offer for a teaching job. In my Muslim environment in the U.S., Muslim women
were sent out to recruit. I heard that from Muslims who had been longer in the
U.S. than I.
The next step would be to convert non-Muslims. I’ve also heard that any man
who added the name Muhammad to his own name received $1000. You ask me from
whom. From Saudi people, I suppose. That’s never been exactly said to me. I
heard this in my Muslim community. One such example is the ‘Washington sniper’
who a few years ago shot people. He had an American name and the name Muhammad
added. I suppose he received that $1000.
Next quote: “The Netherlands as Islamic mission country”. Every country in
the world is regarded by Muslims as an Islamic mission country. I mention as an
example the U.S. They try to infiltrate American society. A history teacher in
my neighborhood, for instance, organized a project: anyone who got it done
during one Ramadan fast day was rewarded 10 extra points. That was in a public
school. When questioned by the examining magistrate whether this teacher was a
Muslim, I say: I do not know.
Next quote: “Islam is a violent religion.” Ms. Sultan: That’s right.When
you read in the Qur’an, ‘Chop off their heads and finger tips’, you can not
speak of a peaceful religion. As a child in Syria I was proudly told that
Muhammad had slain 800 Jews in one night. He spent the night with a Jewess,
whose father and brothers were slain by himself.
If I then, as an 8-year-old girl, was asked ‘what do you prefer, candy or
kill a Jew’, I would have replied ‘kill a Jew’, Ms. Sultan said.
Muhammad started in Mecca, and in 13 years there he converted about 150
people with words. Then he went to Medina, where he became violent. In nine
years, he killed everyone who was against him. In Mecca, the Qur’an still is
somewhat peaceful, but in Medina that is no longer so.
You must be familiar with the term ‘abrogation’. That later violent verses
are to be preferred to the earlier ones. The later verses replace the previous
ones. I will give you an example.
Now this is valid: ‘Fight the unbelievers who do not believe in Allah and
his messenger until they pay a certain tax or until they are dead’. But before
that it was in the sense of ‘Deal quietly with an unbeliever and leave him
alone for a while’. Next quote: “The Qur’an, free from all hate verses, would
have the size of a Donald Duck”.
Ms. Sultan said the following about this: With that I agree. I base that on
what is written in the Qur’an and what I’ve learned about it. Concerning a
question from the prosecutor, I have to say that I have no expertise on
Moroccan youth in the Netherlands.
She then declares about the film Fitna: I’ve seen the movie many times, but
not in preparation for this hearing. I’ve seen the movie with English
subtitles; I speak Arabic. On questions of the lawyer [Moszckowicz], you ask me
if the book that is shown at the beginning is the Qur’an.Yes, without any
doubt.
You ask me about the translation of the word ‘Irhab’. Terrorism. You tell
me that in the film Muslims are shown who express themselves negatively about
Jews and gays and ask me if this perception is based on the norms of Islam.
Yes, it is.
The behavior in the film is corresponds with the Qur’anic teachings. The
images correspond with the texts in the Qur’an. There is a Qur’anic verse that
says ‘catch the unbeliever, even if he is in a tower’. There are Muslims who
believe that this shows the attacks of September 11, 2001 are in the Qur’an.
Violence against women and gays is a common practice in Islam.
This follows from the doctrine. In the Qur’an for example, is stated ‘beat
your wife if she refuses to sleep with you’. In the English translation it says
here ‘beat her softly’. That is what I mean by a ‘sugar-coated’ translation. In
the original Arabic version of the Qur’an it does not say that your have to hit
her gently.
About gay men it is said that you should take them up a mountain and throw
them off it. I think that is the Sharia. In the Sharia it is even said that a
woman who is a virgin when she gets the death penalty, must first be raped.
This according to Ms. Sultan.
Then to questions from the prosecutor, Ms. Sultan said the following: You
ask me when I first had my doubts about what Islam was teaching me. I met my
husband in 1975. He was born in Syria as a Muslim, but has since stepped out of
it. After his father died, he was raised by a Christian friend of his father.
Even at our first meeting he tried to change me, but I was as stubborn as a
rock. In 1978 I witnessed the murder of my professor by the Muslim Brotherhood.
They riddled his body with bullets as they shouted ‘Allahu Akhbar, Allahu
Akhbar’.
Then I started having questions. I dared not doubt Islam, but did have
questions in the line of ‘what kind of Allah allows this type of crime?’ Have
these people misunderstood Islam, or does the problem lie with Islam itself?
You tell me that it appears as if there is a contradiction between the Islam
that oppresses women and myself, who had an education as a psychiatrist. Syria
is a relatively secular country.
As I also describe in my book, I worked in the U.S. in the beginning as
cashier at a gas station. There, as a female cashier, I was treated better than
as a psychiatrist in Syria. For example, in Syria, I was harassed by male
colleagues. I could not act against this, because according to Islamic rules,
as a woman you need to come up with four witnesses, it says so in the Qur’an.
If I could not do so, I would be charged with adultery. In the U.S., I was not
even harassed, and if that had happened, I could have taken legal action.
I give you another example. My brother, who is two years my junior, did not
even finish high school, but in the absence of my husband, I must ask him for
his permission to go out for a walk. In the U.S. that of course would not be
necessary. You ask me why these differences are correlated with the Islam, and
not for instance with geographical cultural differences. The way women are
treated is described in the Qur’an. If your wife does not follow your
instructions: beat her.
In the Qur’an is also is mentioned that woman are too mentally deficient to
take care of themselves. You ask me whether I should worry about my safety in
connection with the message I convey. Certainly. I live in hiding. I was aware
of the price I had to pay for propagating my message. Still, I am happy with the life I
lead.
I receive death threats on a daily basis. For example emails that say, ‘We
know which school your children attend.’ Most threats are in Arabic and
anonymous. One time a group that calls itself ‘The soldiers of Allah’ came up
with a list of 30 names, including mine and four other people living in the
U.S. They had declared a fatwa on these people. And also this statement is
undersigned by Ms. Sultan. I have a quick look at the clock.
Then I continue the statement, at least the little part we received from
Mr. Moszkowicz, which was written by Raphael Israeli, and I wondered a bit, I
assume your request is to take that part of the file that I should read out.
[Mr. Moszkowicz] “If you do not mind that.” I will read the piece. I am seeing
it for the first time, so I hope you’ll forgive me if I do not read it out well
right away. ‘You are pardoned in advance.’ ‘In my opinion it is correct to say
that Islam seeks to master and subdue other civilizations.
This on the basis of the doctrine of the jihad, which states that the Islam
is superior, that it is necessary to subdue other religions believed by these
civilizations. See for reference the most recent book of Mark Durie. [The Third Choice: Islam, Dhimmitude
and Freedom — translator]
TEMOIGNAGE DU PR HANS JANSEN EN FAVEUR DE GEERT WILDERS
TEMOIGNAGE DU PR HANS JANSEN EN FAVEUR DE GEERT WILDERS
.jpg)
http://www.bivouac-id.com/billets/traduction-collective-le-temoignage-de-hans-jansen-au-proces-wilders/
Voir traduction des trois premieres videos en français sur le site Bivouac id
Le témoignage de Hans Jansen au procès Wilders
• http://www.youtube.com/v/pCkhJbEIR0o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO1B6dDKLUM&feature=related
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2
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Le témoignage de Hans Jansen au procès Wilders
« Il n’existe aucune autre religion qui veuille aller aussi loin dans la domination que l’islam.»
« Je ne connais aucun verset qui appelle à la paix avec les non-musulmans. La coexistence est un mot qui n’existe pas dans le dictionnaire islamique.
« [En islam], il est du devoir de chaque musulman de participer à la guerre jusqu’à ce que l’islam triomphe.»
« L’islam est fier de la destruction des civilisations antérieures. »
Les vidéos d’un témoignage majeur au procès de Geert Wilders viennent d’être traduites en anglais. Le témoin en question est Hans Jansen [photo], universitaire, docteur en langue arabe, professeur d’arabe et d’études islamiques. En résumé, l’un des plus grands spécialistes de la civilisation islamique des Pays-Bas [voir notice Wikipedia].
A notre demande, le site Vlad Tepes, particulièrement actif dans la réinformation concernant l’islam, a eu l’amabilité de nous transmettre les fichiers texte du sous-titrage anglais.
L’image apportant peu d’éléments informatifs, les vidéos ne seront pas sous-titrées en français. Nous vous livrons les textes intégraux des traductions, réalisées à partir de la version anglaise.
Pour la traduction, vifs remerciements à KnightTemplar, Rosalie, Klass-Mot-Klass, et aux autres participants.
Video 1 Texte de la vidéo 1
Le témoin expert a déclaré ce qui suit :
“Mon nom est Johanes Julliaan Gijsbert Jansen, né en Novembre 17, 1942, vivant à Amsterdam, à la retraite».
Hans Jansen a soumis un CV, qui a été joint à l’audience. Il y déclare dans une note :
«J’ai été professeur à Utrecht de 2003 à 2008. J’ai corrigé la traduction du Coran de Kramers , j’en en fait l’annotation, j’ai supprimé les erreurs, etc “.
Le texte suivant provient d’une autre note du CV. Il me semble plus clair de la lire en premier :
«Le professeur docteur Hans Jansen est un arabisant, il a étudié l’arabe et les langues sémitiques à Amsterdam, Leiden et au Caire. Le fil conducteur de toute sa carrière est l’étude de la religion en général et de l’Islam en particulier. Il est l’un des rares observateurs de l’islam aux Pays-Bas qui ose regarder sans “lunettes roses” l’évolution récente au sein de l’islam. À l’Université d’Utrecht, il a enseigné la pensée islamique contemporaine.
Il a également travaillé à l’Université de Leyde et de Groningue. De 1991 à 1997, il a été membre du Conseil national consultatif pour la Coopération au Développement, et a participé à la controverse sur le sens et l’insignifiance de l’aide internationale.
En plus de sa carrière universitaire, il a participé à de nombreuses activités annexes au Moyen-Orient, y compris pour la Croix-Rouge en Irak en 1990. Il a visité presque tous les pays du Moyen-Orient, y a effectué des séjours plus ou moins longs, et a résidé pendant près de quatre ans au Caire, où il a dirigé l’Institut néerlandais de 1979 à 1982.
Il a écrit entre autres une biographie reconnue de Mahomet, qui a été traduite en allemand, et un ouvrage de référence sur l’idéologie et la théologie de l’assassinat du Président égyptien Sadate en 1981.
Ses livres ne sont pas seulement traduits en allemand, mais aussi en yougoslave, en turc, et en indonésien. Il a notamment publié des articles dans [les journaux / magazines] De Volkskrant, Trouw, HP/De Tijd et dans l’hebdo Opinio, qui a cessé d’exister.
« Pour l’islam, toutes les sociétés ‘incrédules’ doivent être transformées. Si ce n’est pas par le Coran, alors c’est par le bâton. »Son livre «L’Islam pour les porcs, les singes, les ânes et autres bêtes” est devenu un relatif best-seller aux Pays-Bas en 2008. Le titre très particulier de ce livre est tiré du Coran qui, pour les musulmans, est considéré comme la parole littérale de Dieu, et dans lequel les non-musulmans sont définis par ces noms d’animaux.
En 1992, il a corrigé une édition de la traduction officielle du Coran du Professeur Kramers. ”
Jansen est également un célèbre commentateur à la radio et à la télévision (Nova, Pouw et Witteman, RTL News). Sur son site, on trouve la liste de ses publications et un CV abrégé.
En ce qui concerne la traduction du Coran, M. Jansen a déclaré à l’audience:
«Avec la correction de la traduction du Coran de Kramers, je veux dire par là son annotation (la suppression des erreurs, etc. car Kramers a réalisé ce travail sans avoir accès aux œuvres scientifiques nécessaires), j’ai essayé de modifier la traduction d’une manière que Kramers aurait lui-même approuvée s’il avait eu accès à toutes ces œuvres “.
Puis il lui a été demandé de préciser tous les liens possibles qu’il a entretenu avec M. Wilders, et il a répondu:
“Je connais Geert Wilders. La première fois que je l’ai rencontré, il était membre du groupe VVD, et un membre de la commission des affaires étrangères du Parlement. Ce comité a consulté un certain nombre d’experts sur la religion et la politique. J’ai rencontré Wilders de 4 à 6 fois au cours des dix dernières années. C’est à peu près tout.
Je me souviens qu’une fois il m’a demandé si je connaissais un musulman qui serait prêt à parler avec lui de l’islam. Wilders m’a parfois appelé et j’ai répondu aux questions qu’il m’a posées. Je ne me souviens pas quelles ont été ces questions et je ne sais pas ce qu’il a fait de mes réponses.
Je suis régulièrement sollicité par les journalistes et les hommes politiques pour des questions concernant l’islam. Par exemple savoir où se trouve tel ou tel verset dans le Coran. Et je leur réponds.
« Le coran prescrit la violence de façon impérative. C’est une obligation et la récompense est grande.»En réponse à une question posée par le Procureur, qui montre du doigt une lettre de M. Pestman datant du 20 avril 2010, Jansen répond :
«Si j’ai contribué à la création du film Fitna, je l’ignore. Je ne sais pas ce que font les gens des réponses que je leur donne. Wilders m’a demandé où il est dit dans le Coran que les infidèles doivent être tués, ou qu’ils sont des porcs. Je ne sais pas s’il a utilisé mes réponses pour le film Fitna. Tout au moins, Wilders ne m’a pas demandé de le conseiller pour le film.
J’ai également été interrogé sur ce sujet par Twan Huys [télévision néerlandaise]. Il a insinué la même chose. Je suis en colère à ce sujet. Ce matin, il y avait un article dans De Volkskrant sur moi et sur mon lien avec Geert Wilders.
Je suis sidéré d’entendre que les gens pensent que je vais mentir aujourd’hui parce que j’ai parlé une fois avec G. Wilders. M. Moszkowicz me dit que cette lettre confirme qu’il existe bien un lien entre moi et M. Wilders, via l’assocation International Free Press du Danemark. Je ne savais même pas que Wilders avait quelque chose à voir avec cette organisation, jusqu’à ce que je le lise ce matin dans De Volkskrant.
Lars Hedegaard m’a demandé d’être membre du conseil consultatif de cette organisation. Je l’ai fait, mais je n’ai jamais développé d’activité au sein de cette organisation.
Le magistrat m’a dit qu’il avait lu ce communiqué de presse sur Internet. Dans le communiqué de presse, distinct du présent article, se trouve une liste des noms de conseillers, dont mon nom. Je n’ai jamais vu ce communiqué de presse. Je n’ai jamais signé d’appel à soutenir Geert Wilders.
Le magistrat m’a dit que sur Internet, il est encore possible de cliquer pour signer la pétition. Je ne l’ai certainement pas fait. Simon Admiraal (le prochain expert qui sera entendu par les magistrats) a été l’un de mes étudiants de thèse, de 2004 à 2008, à l’Université d’Utrecht. J’ai convenu avec lui qu’on ne se voit pas pendant un certain temps, en raison de ce procès.
A propos de Wafa Sultan (le troisième expert entendu par la cour) :
« Je ne la connais pas personnellement. J’ai lu son livre et j’ai regardé l’émission sur Al-Jazira “.
Ont été évoqués jusqu’à présent sur le passé et les contacts de M. Jansen. L’audition se poursuit sur le contenu. Le titre indique :
«À propos des déclarations que Wilders a faites, tels qu’incluses dans la convocation. Vous [le magistrat] me demandez si j’ai relevé des citations fausses. Il y a des dizaines de milliers de livres, déclare M. Jansen, qui disent tous la mêmes choses, et certaines sont sujettes à controverse. ”
« Dans de nombreux sermons, même aux Pays-Bas, il est dit que la civilisation occidentale est mauvaise et corrompue et qu’elle doit être renversée ».A la questions de M. Moszkowicz, page 2, à propos de la citation : [L’islam veut dominer] jusqu’à [la civilisation], M. Jansen a répondu:
“Muhammad, 570-632 AD, a déclaré:« J’ai reçu l’ordre de faire la guerre contre les gens jusqu’à ce qu’ils témoignent qu’il n’y a d’autre Dieu qu’Allah et que Muhammad est son messager. Ce n’est qu’en acceptant cette profession de foi que leurs biens et leur sang me deviennent intouchables.”
Vous ne pouvez tout simplement pas faire disparaître cette citation. Aucun imam ne la réfutera. Si vous regardez la Télévision Musulman hollandaise, vous l’entendrez. Cette phrase est souvent récitée lors des prédications en chaire.
Je signale également le Coran, sourate 9:29, qui indique que la guerre doit être menée afin d’interdire ce que Dieu et son messager ont interdit.
De ces textes découle en effet la volonté de dominer.
Je me réfère également dans ce contexte, à un livre-guide, “la Dépendance du Voyageur” [Reliance of the Traveller], où il est dit qu’il est du devoir de chaque musulman de participer à la guerre jusqu’à ce que l’islam triomphe. Dans de nombreux sermons, même aux Pays-Bas, il est dit que la civilisation occidentale est mauvaise et corrompue et qu’elle doit être renversée.
« Si vous deviez enlever tous les versets du coran qui incitent à la haine il serait beaucoup moins épais. Il n’en resterait qu’un quart ou un cinquième. »L’islam est fier de la destruction des civilisations antérieures, comme le christianisme au Moyen-Orient, ou la civilisation zoroastrienne [en Perse]. Le thème «destruction» apparaît souvent dans le Coran, dans les manuels de la charia et dans les ouvrages de référence de l’islam.
Toutes les sociétés incrédules doivent être transformées. Si ce n’est pas par le Coran, alors c’est par le bâton. Vous devez consulter un imam pour connaitre la source de cette dernière citation. Je l’ai lue pour la première fois dans un magazine soufi en Egypte. La citation est attribuée au calife Osman “.
Ensuite, une autre citation présentée par M. Moszkowicz : «l’islam modéré n’existe pas”. Réponse de M. Jansen:
“C’est exact. Il y a des musulmans modérés, mais pas d’islam modéré. Le contenu de l’Islam est établi. Cela ne peut être modifié. Le ministère public demande si je peux dire quelque chose sur le pourcentage des musulmans modérés dans les Pays-Bas. Il existe une étude américaine, l’Enquête Pew, entre autres, réalisée par le Dr Esposito. Il a étudié les musulmans à travers le monde.
Cette étude montre qu’environ 20% de tous les musulmans prennent toutes les prescriptions islamiques littéralement et sérieusement. 60% ont d’autres choses à faire, mais sont d’accord avec l’Islam. C’est ce qu’on appelle la «majorité silencieuse». Les 20% restants veulent se détourner de l’Islam, mais n’osent pas, par peur de représailles.
Il est difficile de tirer des informations réalistes de ce sondage, dit M. Jansen. De nombreuses personnes interrogées se montrent réservées dans leurs déclarations. Dans cette enquête, il y avait une question demandant si les attentats du 11 Septembre 2001 avaient été perpétrées par des juifs ou des musulmans. La majorité a dit: «par des Juifs». Nombreux sont ceux qui ont indiqué qu’ils comprenaient ces attaques .
Un autre extrait de citation est montré à M. Jansen: “Il n’y a pas de distinction entre le bon Islam et le mauvais islam.” M. Jansen répond :
«C’est exact, il n’y a qu’un seul islam et pour les musulmans, l’islam est le synonyme du bien. Il existe, cela ne fait aucun doute, une différence entre les musulmans d’Indonésie et du Maroc, mais le contenu de l’Islam est établi “.
«Le fascisme implique qu’il n’y a pas de place pour les dissidents. En cela, je vois la ressemblance avec l’islam».[Le juge] Une autre citation: «L’islam est le Coran et rien d’autre que le Coran”. M. Jansen:
«L’islam est plus que le Coran, à savoir qu’il comprend la charia et les traditions. Mais le Coran est important parce qu’il est dit qu’il vient directement de Dieu. Habituellement, le Coran est publié dans une version annotée. Après chaque verset coranique, un commentaire issu de la tradition est inclus. Par tradition, je veux dire les traditions canoniques recueillies sur les actes et déclarations de Mahomet.
La plupart des musulmans ne font pas de distinction stricte entre ces commentaires et les versets eux-mêmes, et considèrent le tout comme étant le Coran.
Sur la comparaison entre le Coran et Mein Kampf, Jansen déclare:
«Je comprends la colère des Hollandais à propos de cette expression. Mein Kampf est cependant librement disponible au Moyen-Orient et c’est un livre classique, qui se vend bien, dans toutes les librairies. Bill Warner, qui, je le sais, n’a pas été autorisé par le tribunal comme témoin de ce procès, a comparé le nombre de passages antisémites dans le Coran et dans Mein Kampf.
Dans le Coran, il y a davantage de passages antisémites. Vous pouvez trouver l’article sur Internet, et les résultats de ses recherches n’ont jusqu’à présent pas été contestés.
Sur le terme «élimination». M. Jansen a dit:
Le Coran parle de «faire la guerre ». Dans le Coran, 164 passages appellent à la guerre. A propos du fait de tuer les infidèles par exemple, la sourate 9:30 indique que «toute personne qui croit que le Christ est le Fils de Dieu doit être tuée».
Sur le terme «chiens», M. Jansen a dit:
Ce mot apparaît une fois dans le Coran, pour désigner les non-musulmans. En outre, les non-musulmans sont appelés «bêtes immondes»
[pour la version anglaise, voir l’archive texte ici ]
Video 2
Texte de la vidéo 2
Citation suivante, page 2, premier paragraphe, dernière phrase
Cette citation d’Oriana Fallaci est partiellement correcte, dit Mr Jansen. Le mal ne vient pas seulement du coran, mais aussi et surtout de la charia. Le coran est important par le fait qu’il dit ne pas être une invention humaine mais la vérité divine.
Sur l’expression “L’islam fasciste”. Mr Jansen répond:
Je ne suis pas un expert du fascisme. J’estime que le “fascisme” est une malédiction. Cela implique qu’il n’y a pas de place pour les dissidents. En cela, je vois la ressemblance avec l’islam.
Citation suivante : “Une idéologie malsaine”. Mr Jansen déclare :
Je ne veux pas exprimer un jugement de valeur, mais l’islam est bien une idéologie. L’islam appelle à l’action de ses adeptes et cette action vise toute la société. Du divorce à l’organisation bancaire. Les autres religions ne l’exigent pas de cette manière.
L’idéologie vient du coran. C’est là qu’elle prend sa source, mais aussi dans la charia. Et les traditions doivent être prises en compte. Je viens de le montrer et d’en expliquer la raison. Beaucoup de musulmans considèrent que la charia et les traditions ne font qu’un avec le coran.
Sir la citation : “Bannissez ce livre lamentable”. Mr Jansen déclare :
Mon opinion personnelle est que l’interdiction de ce livre n’est pas une bonne idée. Les gens devraient plutôt lire le coran. Car aux Pays Bas, de nombreuses lois du coran sont déjà interdites. Par exemple, tuer les infidèles, ou couper les mains.
Cette citation concerne l’élément 1 de l’assignation. En ce qui concerne l’élément 2 de l’assignation, les questions continuent en page 3, 2e paragraphe et dans la suite, il est question du développement démographique des musulmans en Europe. A ce sujet, Mr Jansen dit ce qui suit:
J’ai récemment assisté à une conférence organisée par la Burke Foundation. Des statistiques ont été présentées sur la démographie musulmane en Europe. Vous pouvez vous renseigner à ce sujet auprès de Bart Spruyt (du BF). Le monde islamique augmente son poids démographique. L’Europe se réduit.
Les Hollandais ont en moyenne 2 enfants par famille, et les musulmans en ont plus. Les démographes américains ont calculé qu’il y a un nombre sans cesse croissant de musulmans en Europe.
Ceci peut poser problème, car, comme je l’ai dit, 20% des musulmans prennent au pied de la lettre tout ce que l’islam ordonne, et veulent l’appliquer. Ces gens veulent décider pour les autres. Il n’existe aucune autre religion qui veuille aller aussi loin dans la domination que l’islam.
Ce qui n’est pas exact dans la citation, c’est qu’il est dit que les musulmans se répandront dans les zones rurales. L’islam est avant tout une religion urbaine”.
Mr Jansen poursuit :
”Aux Pays Bas, la politique et la religion sont, en principe, séparés. Mais en islam, ce n’est pas ainsi. Dans les pays islamiques, les services secrets peuvent prendre des mesures quand les imams font des sermons qui ne sont pas appréciés par les autorités. Aux Pays Bas, ce n’est pas le cas, en principe.
Dans les mosquées hollandaises, tout peut être dit sans que l’état puisse interférer. C’est la raison pour laquelle de nombreux musulmans, notamment des chefs radicaux, viennent en Europe”.
Page 4, premier paragraphe — c’est la citation où le Professeur Israeli est cité — Mr Jansen dit :
“Le prof. Israeli appuye sa déclaration sur des expressions de S. Qutb,
[Le juge: je ne sais pas comment cela se prononce exactement, mais cela s’épelle q-u-t-b.]
”un homme éminent, le plus lu des écrivains musulman qui ait jamais existé. Il dit que les musulmans ont essayé de gagner la guerre par 2 fois. Et qu’aujourd’hui, c’est le troisième round, la bataille finale, qui est en train de se dérouler.
A la question du procureur sur quelles puissances seraient derrière cette tentative d’invasion, je ne peux pas donner de réponse explicite, mais je peux me référer au document “Le Projet” datant des années 30 ou 40 du XXe siècle.
Ce document provient, parmi d’autres, du père de Tariq Ramadan. Il y est écrit que les musulmans doivent se servir des libertés occidentales. Dès que vous êtes en nombre important, vous aurez automatiquement 20% de ce groupe qui se battra pour l’islam, qui essayera d’imposer les lois de l’islam.
A titre d’exemple, je peux mentionner le fait qu’il existe des pays musulmans qui refusent de reprendre leurs ressortissants.”
Page 4, “La population musulmane double à chaque génération.” Interrogé sur ce sujet, Mr Jansen dit :
Je ne suis pas en mesure de dire quoi que ce soit à ce sujet. Il existe des articles qui donnent le pourcentage de musulmans à partir duquel on peut s’attendre à des problèmes dans une société.”
Plus loin, page 4, 3e paragraphe, “l’islam est une religion violente”. Mr Jansen déclare :
“Là où la Bible ne contient que des rêves ou ne fait que relater des histoires violentes, le coran prescrit la violence de façon impérative. C’est une obligation et la récompense est grande.
Je peux citer R. Scruton à ce sujet: « Le christianisme est une religion de l’échec, qui a rencontré le succès. L’islam est une religion du succès, mais qui conduit à des monstruosités et donc à l’échec.”
Heureusement, tous les musulmans ne prennent pas au sérieux les prescriptions ordonnant d’utiliser la violence, mais certains le font malheureusement .
Une expression islamique dit : “d’abord un avertissement, puis une fessée. Et pour finir, le meurtre par l’épée. Je chercherai pour vous (i.e. le magistrat) l’emplacement exact de cette citation. Un musulman confirmerait sans aucun doute que c’est dans le coran.”
Page 5, citation : “Ce livre incite à la haine et au meurtre”. Mr Jansen dit :
“Oui. Celui qui lit 10 pages du coran verra que c’est tout à fait exact, aussi longtemps que cela concerne seulement les incroyants.”
Page 6 de l’assignation, sur le coran et sur la taille de Donald Duck (le dessin animé), Mr Jansen répond:
“Il existe bien évidemment des versets qui ne sont pas haineux. Prendre soin des orphelins, faire l’aumône. Mais si vous deviez enlever tous les versets du coran qui incitent à la haine il serait beaucoup moins épais. Il n’en resterait qu’un quart ou un cinquième.”
Sur la citation suivante, page 6, ”Le coran n’est pas une lettre morte.” Mr Jansen dit :
Chaque père musulman souhaite que son fils apprenne le coran par coeur. Le coran est souvent cité dans la conversation de tous les jours. Si vous demandez à un musulman si la charia doit être appliquée, il répondra “oui”. Quand vous demandez si la main d’un voleur doit être coupée, parfois, il répondra “non”, parce qu’il ne sait pas que cela se trouve dans la charia. Si vous dites que c’est dans la charia, il dira alors: ” Bien, que cela soit ainsi”.
Car, s’opposer à la charia, c’est faire acte d’apostasie. Et pour cela, selon la charia, la peine de mort est requise. Les historiens des religions diront que la religion, c’est ce que le croyant en fait. Mais les musulmans croient que l’islam — donc tout ce qui est écrit — est valable et existe sans pouvoir être influencé par les adeptes.
Aux questions du procureur, qui croit savoir qu’en Indonésie une version plus modérée de l’islam est appliquée, je réponds que là aussi, l’islam devient de plus en plus strict.
Les imams y disent la même chose que dans les autres pays musulmans, on y voit de plus en plus de voiles. Pour tenter de couper l’herbe sous le pied des groupes musulmans fondamentalistes, le gouvernement (indonésien) prend des mesures allant vers plus d’islamisation. C’est là que réside le danger.
Citation suivante (page 12 de l’assignation) sur les jeunes hommes marocains, et cette citation: “Ils frappent des gens à cause de leur orientation sexuelle”. Mr Jansen dit:
Il est difficile de répondre à cela. Je prends en exemple une fatwa émise par un imam, Al-Moumni. Quand un jeune garçon a demandé si, dans un contexte de jihad, l’on peut commettre des actes de débauche avec les filles, il a répondu qu’il était juste préférable de se marier. Dès lors, il ne l’a pas interdit explicitement.
De nombreux jeunes marocains sont souvent inconsciemment focalisés sur leur religion. Il existe des exemples connus de jeunes qui tapent sur les fenêtres des non musulmans dans le voisinage. Ceci ne peut réellement être qualifié de criminel, mais les non-musulmans finiront par déménager.
L’homosexualité ne peut pas se montrer en public. En Iran, c’est puni de mort, et c’est appliquée. Al-Moumni a déclaré que l’homosexualité était une maladie. donc que l’on ne peut pas s’en empêcher. Et lui-même trouve que c’est une maladie progressive. Le coran dit que la sodomie est un péché grave, pire que l’adultère. Celui qui commet la sodomie doit être exécuté, et un comportement lesbien équivaut à l’adultère. Pour cela aussi, c’est la peine de mort.
Vous trouverez tout ceci dans, par exemple, le livre “Reliance of the Traveller”, un ouvrage de référence pour les musulmans sur la charia.”
Retour à la page 3. Citation : “Leur comportement provient de leur religion et de leur culture”, à nouveau à propos des jeunes marocains. Mr Jansen répond :
C’est assez vrai. Cela implique particulièrement les comportements de harcèlement. Frapper sur les fenêtres et jeter des pierres. C’est avant tout un comportement de gamins. Mais les parents l’approuvent. Ce comportement ne justifie pas que l’on prenne les armes contre eux. mais il est suffisant pour faire partir les gens.
Nous aimerions vraiment pouvoir trouver une justification à ces comportements en dehors de l’islam, mais il se trouve que l’islam approuve ces agissements, et fournit une justification. De même quand il s’agit d’arracher des sacs.
Quand le magistrat me demande si un jeune marocain pourrait arracher le sac d’une musulmane, je réponds que c’est possible, mais je considère cela plutôt improbable.
L’audition continue sur le film Fitna. Sur ce sujet, Monsieur Jansen déclare ce qui suit :
J’ai vu ce film dans les studios de Hilversum, à la demande de NOS (le diffuseur). On m’a demandé si je voulais le commenter, si la traduction était correcte, et si j’avais vu les images auparavant.
Je ne peux garantir que la version que j’ai vu plus tard dans sa forme éditée avait commencé à circuler sur internet.
Les traductions des sourates sont-elles correctes ? Mr Jansen:
oui.
Sourate 8 verset 60 :
le chanteur dans le film répète le mot “terroriser” alors que dans ce verset du coran, il n’apparaît qu’une fois. Terroriser, d’après Mr Jansen, est une traduction correcte de “tuhibuna”.
Vous pouvez, évidemment, toujours essayer de trouver un synonyme tel que “frapper par la peur” ou “faire peur”, mais un arabe traduira le mot par “terroriser”.
Comment puis-je savoir que les images montrées sont apparemment celles d’imams ?
Je n’ai pas vu leurs diplômes, mais leurs vêtements et leurs façons de parler me donnent l’impression que ce sont des imams. Le livre qui est montré avec une écriture orientale est évidemment le coran. Cela me déçoit que le procureur n’ait pas fait ces recherches longtemps à l’avance.
Mr Jansen poursuit :
Dans les milieux musulmans, je n’ai jamais vu quelqu’un faire le salut hitlérien.
Il ajoute:
Les déclarations sur les Juifs et sur les violences contre les Juifs sont assez fréquentes dans le monde musulman. Ces déclarations ne sont pas hors contexte. Chaque croyant pense que sa croyance est supérieure. Si vous ne suivez pas l’islam, vous êtes alors une mauvaise personne.
Si vous, musulman, quittez l’islam, c’est la peine de mort. Si une cour de justice criminelle n’ordonne pas cette punition, un individu doit l’exécuter. Allah a ordonné que l’islam doit se répandre partout, si nécessaire, par les armes.
On demande les sources. Mr Jansen indique :
Sourate 2:16, 4:89, 9:36. Heureusement, de nombreux musulmans sont des personnes décentes et n’éxécuteraient pas cet ordre. Le christianisme contient moins d’obligations. [ici, une phrase obscure a été supprimée]
Question suivante : la violence contre les femmes est-elle une pratique commune dans l’islam ? Mr Jansen répond :
Vous devriez demander à un sociologue. Le coran dit que si tu as peur que ta femme commette un acte non permis, tu dois la frrapper. Sourate 4:34 . Il y a des hommes qui prennent cela à la lettre et les prédicateurs utilisent ce verset.
[pour la version anglaise, voir l’archive texte ici ]
Video 3
Texte de la video 3
« L’Occident est dominant, mais, selon les Musulmans, c’est l’Islam qui devrait l’être,» dit M. Jansen.
« Est-ce que les groupes radicaux ont une influence sur les mosquées aux Pays-Bas? », M. Jansen répond :
« Oui, il y a une influence qui augmente, particulièrement de l’Islam saoudien, du wahabisme et des salafistes radicaux. Pour dire cela, je me base sur des journaux, des documents de l’AIVD [Service d’Espionnage Néerlandais], mais également sur des discussions avec des gens de ce cercle, par exemple Abdul Jabbar van de Ven. Il m’a déclaré fièrement qu’il avait étudié en Arabie Saoudite, et qu’il était en faveur de l’introduction de la Chari’a et de l’interdiction de la musique.
En la matière, cela remonte à une assertion de Mohamet.” Et à une citation : « J’ai été envoyé pour interdir le luth, la jarre et la croix. »
M. Jansen continue :
« J’ai aussi parlé à deux personnes qui font une émission de télévision appelée “Sal et Ab”. Eux aussi étaient fiers d’avoir été en Arabie Saoudite. »
Jusqu’ici, les questions posées l’ont été au regard des citations spécifiques de la convocation. Voici maintenant quelques questions générales. Les premières questions sont celles du Procureur, auxquelles M. Jansen a répondu les éléments suivants.
Lorsque l’on lui demande si, dans le monde musulman, il existe un débat au sujet de la sécularisation [pour diminuer la place de la religion dans la société], M. Jansen répond :
« Non, c’est le contraire. Je sais que des amis de l’Islam prétendent qu’une lente extinction de la foi est en cours, mais je pense qu’ils ont tort. L’atmosphère [littéralement, l’humeur] est plus religieuse que jamais.
Quand j’étais au Caire en 1966, on ne voyait aucun voile. Désormais toutes les femmes sont voilées. C’est un symbole de l’introduction de la Chari’a.
Il existe des bibliothèques entières de livres qui sont de mon avis, et seulement quelques étagères qui disent qu’il y a une baisse du fait religieux. Ces quelques étagères, cependant, sont celles qui comptent aux Pays-Bas. Ce sont elles qui obtiennent les subventions pour les recherches scientifiques. »
M. Jansen continue :
« Vous me demandez ce qu’il en est de la séparation entre le religieux et le politique. Les Musulmans savent que ce sont deux choses différentes, mais c’est à peu près tout. Vous devez aussi garder à l’esprit qu’aux débuts de l’Islam, du temps de Mohamet, la société était sans état. De ce fait, en Islam, la religion et le pouvoir politique allaient de pair. Les sultans avaient toujours le pouvoir. Il y avait certes des tensions avec les chefs religieux, mais il ne pouvait y avoir aucune distance entre les dirigeants réligieux et les dirigeants politiques.
Le Sultan est le chef, et les imams ont le rôle du parlement. En Iran, c’est différent car ce sont les Ayatollahs qui ont le pouvoir.
En page 10 de la convocation, le juge me dit que mon nom apparait [dans le film Fitna]. M. Jansen répond :
« Cette citation est l’en-tête d’un article que j’ai écrit et je ne savais pas à l’avance que cette citation allait apparaître dans le film. »
Vient ensuite une question du procureur : «Le Procureur me demande comment il était possible au Moyen-Âge que les Juifs et les Chrétiens aient des statuts spécifiques. » M. Jansen répond:
Je me réfère à la sourate 9:29. “ Les Christians et les Juifs peuvent, temporairement, contre paiement d’une taxe, être épargnés par les lois musulmanes. De fait, ils ne peuvent pas être exempté de cet impôt. Car l’islam doit toujours s’affirmer comme supérieur. C’est symbolisé par le percepteur qui porte un coup sur la nuque des personnes taxées, en guise de décapitation symbolique.” »
M. Jansen continue :
« Je sais que des islamophiles utilisent cela comme un symbole de tolérance, ce n’en est pas un, selon moi. C’est un symbole de la supériorité islamique.
C’est le mythe andalou, où les Chrétiens, les Juifs et les Musulmans peuvent vivre ensemble. Weinstein, un classiciste de Dublin, a écrit la dessus. Ce mythe a existé en Russie du temps des Tsars, pour permettre aux juifs d’étudier à l’université.
Dans ce contexte, j’aimerais mentionner une étude de Rodney Stark, qui s’est rendu compte qu’il n’y avait pas eu moins de pogroms en Andalousie qu’ailleurs en Europe.
Le Procureur me pose une question sur Grenade ; il me demande si ce n’était pas le lieu où les Juifs prospèrèrent le plus dans le Monde musulman.
Je ne sais pas grand chose là-dessus,
répond M. Jansen. Un certain nombre de questions ont été posées par la défense [M. Moszkowicz].
En réponse à la question de M. Moszkowicz:
« Vous me dites qu’un certain nombre de spécialistes de l’Islam néerlandais, incluant le Professeur Leemhuis, ont fait circuler une lettre d’information.J’ai regardé un peu cette lettre, mais il y avait tant de fautes d’orthographe que je n’y ai pas prêté beaucoup d’attention. Vous me dites que cette lettre indiquait que dans le film Fitna, la sourate 47:4 est citée seulement partiellement, et de ce fait hors contexte. »
M. Jansen répond :
« C’est exact, elle n’est que partiellement citée. Si l’on devait la citer en entier, il aurait fallu ajouter que lorsque les ennemis sont vaincus, il faut les vendre comme esclaves. La seconde partie de ce verset ne rend pas la première moins mauvaise, à mes yeux. Le verset entier dit qu’il ne faut arrêter de couper les têtes que lorsque l’ennemi s’est rendu ou s’est converti à l’Islam. Ce n’est donc pas pris hors contexte. »
Vous dites, ensuite, M. Jansen :
« Dans les sermons, chez les Musulmans en général, ce verset est cité comme il l’est dans Fitna. On n’en cite que la première moitié. [Ici, un passage trop technique a été supprimé. NDT]
M. Jansen dit ensuite :
« Vous me dites que sur lettre d’information, il est écrit que la sourate 2:256 stipule qu’il n’y a pas de contrainte en religion. Quand le Coran a été révélé à la Mecque, il appelait à la liberté pour ceux qui suivaient Mohamet. Quand le Coran a été révélé à Médine, il prêchait la mort pour les infidèles. C’est finalement le prêche de Médine qui est resté.
Au fur et à mesure, les textes originaux ont été annulés par les révélations qui ont suivi. Cela s’appelle “ l’abrogation ”.
Leemhuis [qui a contribué à cette lettre d’information] devrait savoir que la sourate 2:256 a été abrogée.
Pour les Musulmans, il n’y a pas de discussion là-dessus. Je vous ferai parvenir plus tard l’endroit exact de cette abrogation, mais vous devriez le demander à Leemhuis, sous serment. »
Par la suite, M. Jansen a envoyé un document au juge concernant ce verset 2:256 du Coran “ Il n’y a pas de contrainte en religion ”. Il y donne des informations détaillées sur ce verset. Voulez-vous que je lise également cela plus tard ? [M. Moszkowicz: “S’il-vous-plaît.”] Entendu, je vais d’abord continuer la lecture du témoignage, puis je lirai cette explication.
M. Jansen vient de dire que le verset mentionné était abrogé. Le point suivant de cette lettre d’information est de dire que le Coran appelle à la paix et à la réconcialiation. Notamment dans le verset 2:84, “ Tu ne verseras pas le sang de ton prochain ”. M. Jansen répond à ce sujet :
« C’est inexact. Ce verset ne s’applique qu’aux Musulmans entre eux. »
Concernant la sourate 10:25 , M. Jansen déclare :
Dieu appelle à établir la Maison de la Paix (Dar el-Islam). Le lieu où se trouve cette maison de la paix, c’est l’Islam, par opposition à la Maison de la Guerre. Ce verset signifie que l’on doit devenir Musulman, et aller vivre dans la communauté musulmane.
Ensuite, sourate 2:224, « Et ne faites pas de Dieu un obstacle à la paix entre les gens. » M. Jansen indique :
« Je vais lire le verset complet dans le Coran que j’ai ici avec moi. On y évoque un serment fait à la hâte, qui ne doit pas empêcher un homme de faire le bien. Il concerne surtout la répudiation trop rapide des femmes. Je n’y vois pas le mot “ faire la paix ”. Je traduirais plutôt par “refaire” ou “réparer”.
On montre ensuite à M. Jansen la sourate 3:103 : « Pensez à la grâce qu’Allah vous a faite : vous étiez ennemis, et il a relié vos cœurs, et vous êtes devenu frères par sa grâce. » M. Jansen dit :
« D’après les commentaires, ceci est dit contre les différents groupes à Médine. Cela s’adresse aux musulmans. “Devenir frères” ne signifie rien de plus que se convertir à l’Islam. «Penser à la grâce d’Allah» signifie souvent “lire le Coran”. C’est un verset musulman interne »
M. Jansen continue :
« En tant que philologue occidental, on pourrait utiliser ces versets pour démontrer le caractère pacifique de l’Islam, et c’est peut-être ce que Leemhuis souhaite sincèrement. Toutefois il est important de comprendre que ces versets sont adressés aux Musulmans, et qu’ils sont à propos de ce que pensent les Musulmans d’eux-mêmes.
Je ne connais aucun verset qui appelle à la paix avec les non-musulmans. La coexistence n’est pas un mot qui existe dans le dictionnaire islamique.
En pratique, cela arrive, mais c’est seulement quand les armées des non-musulmans — par exemples les forces occidentales — sont plus puissantes. »
Procès-verbal de M. Jansen, signé par lui.
[pour la version anglaise, voir l’archive texte ici ]
Video 4
(la fin de la vidéo 3 et le début de la n°4 sont identiques. Le reste de cette vidéodonne des détails extrêmement technique sur l’abrogation. Pour cette raison, elle ne sera pas traduite. Elle ne présente pas de réel intérêt pour la majorité de nos lecteurs. Pour les plus curieux : http://www.youtube.com/v/t-IvgP2UkbA
————————–
Vidéos originales non sous-titrées (son de meilleure qualité)
• http://www.youtube.com/v/WtECOxVb-SQ
• http://www.youtube.com/v/UM7pIkaxmes
• http://www.youtube.com/v/AT4-In5KXGw
• http://www.youtube.com/v/pCkhJbEIR0o
http://www.bivouac-id.com/billets/archives-texte-temoignage-hans-jansen-proces-wilders/
Archives : texte témoignage Hans Jansen / Procès Wilders
Cet article publié le 31 octobre 2010 a été antédaté (il est actuellement daté de 2005) pour archivage.
Texte en anglais de la video 1
[00:00:00.000] The expert witness has declared as follows:
[00:00:07.000] “My name is Johanes Julliaan Gijsbert Jansen, born November 17, 1942, living in Amsterdam, retired”.
[00:00:16.000] He has submitted a CV which is attached to the hearing and he says in a footnote to it:
[00:00:24.000] “I was a professor in Utrecht from 2003-2008. With the editing of the Kramers’ Quran
[00:00:32.000] translation, I mean annotating, removing errors, and so on”.
[00:00:37.000] This is another footnote of the CV. It seems clearer to me if I pick that up first,
[00:00:42.000] and also read that out. [Moszkowicz: “Please”]
[00:00:47.000] “Professor doctor Hans Jansen is an Arabist; he studied Arabic and Semitic languages
[00:00:53.000] in Amsterdam, Leiden and Cairo. The common thread throughout his career
[00:00:59.000] is the study of religion in general and Islam in particular.
[00:01:05.000] He is one of the few Islam-watchers in the Netherlands who dares to look without rose-tinted glasses
[00:01:12.000] at recent developments within Islam. At the University of Utrecht,
[00:01:17.000] he was a professor of contemporary Islamic thought.
[00:01:22.000] He also worked at the Universities of Leiden and Groningen.
[00:01:27.000] From 1991 to 1997, he was a member of the National Advisory Council for Development Cooperation,
[00:01:34.000] and participated in the controversy over the meaning and meaninglessness of international aid.
[00:01:42.000] In addition to his academic career, he engaged in numerous ancillary activities in the Middle East,
[00:01:47.000] including for the Red Cross in Iraq in 1990. He has visited almost all countries
[00:01:52.000] in the Middle East for longer or shorter periods, and resided for almost four years in Cairo,
[00:01:58.000] where he led the Dutch Institute from 1979 to 1982.
[00:02:06.000] He wrote among other things a well-noted biography of Muhammad, which was translated into German,
[00:02:12.000] and a standard work on the ideology and theology behind the 1981 assassination
[00:02:18.000] of Egyptian President Sadat. His books are not only translated into German,
[00:02:23.000] but also in Yugoslav, Turkish, and Indonesian.
[00:02:28.000] He has published articles in including [newspapers/magazines] De Volkskrant, Trouw,
[00:02:32.000] HP/De Tijd and the now defunct weekly Opinio.
[00:02:37.000] His book ‘Islam for pigs, monkeys, donkeys and other beasts’ became a modest bestseller
[00:02:44.000] in the Netherlands in 2008. The peculiar title of this book is derived from the Koran,
[00:02:51.000] which for Muslims is considered the literal word of God, in which non-Muslims are defined with these animal names.
[00:03:00.000] In 1992 he edited an edition of the authoritative Quran translation of Prof. Kramers.”
[00:03:08.000] Jansen is also a popular commentator on radio and TV programs
[00:03:13.000] such as Nova, Pouw and Witteman, and RTL News.
[00:03:18.000] And on his website you can find the list of publications and an abbreviated CV.
[00:03:26.000] With regard to the Quran translation, Mr. Jansen said in the hearing:
[00:03:35.000] “With the editing of the Quran translation of Kramers, I mean annotating, removing errors, etc.
[00:03:42.000] Kramers wrote this work without having access to the scientific works one should have.
[00:03:50.000] I tried to edit his translation in such way as he himself would have preferred
[00:03:54.000] if he had had access to all works”.
[00:04:00.000] Then he is asked about any possible connections to Mr. Wilders, and he says:
[00:04:08.000] “I know Geert Wilders. The first time I met him he was a member of the VVD fraction,
[00:04:16.000] A member of the Foreign Committee of Parliament. This committee had consulted
[00:04:20.000] a number of experts on religion and politics.
[00:04:24.000] I have met Wilders over the past ten years about 4 to 6 times.
[00:04:29.000] That was about everything. I can remember one time he asked me whether I knew
[00:04:33.000] a suitable Muslim who was willing to talk with him about Islam.
[00:04:39.000] Wilders has sometimes called me and I responded to questions he then asked.
[00:04:43.000] I can’t remember what those questions were and don’t know what he has done with my answers.
[00:04:50.000] I’m regularly called by journalists and politicians with questions on matters concerning Islam.
[00:04:57.000] For example where a particular verse in the Koran is. I answer them.
[00:05:05.000] In answer to a question by the Prosecutor, who points at a letter from Mr. Pestman
[00:05:09.000] of April 20, 2010, ‘whether I have participated in the creation of the movie Fitna.’
[00:05:16.000] That I don’t know. I do not know what people do with the answers I give them.
[00:05:22.000] Wilders has asked me where in the Koran it says that infidels must be slain,
[00:05:27.000] or that they are pigs. I do not know whether he has used my answers for Fitna.
[00:05:33.000] At the least, Wilders did not ask me to advise him for the movie.
[00:05:38.000] I was also been questioned about this by Twan Huys [Dutch TV]; he also insinuated this.
[00:05:44.000] I’m angry about that. This morning there was an article in De Volkskrant
[00:05:49.000] about me and my link to Wilders. I express my amazement that people think
[00:05:54.000] I will be lying today because I talked with Wilders once.
[00:06:00.000] Mr. Moszkowicz tells me this letter states there exists a link between me and Mr. Wilders
[00:06:05.000] via The International Free Press Society in Denmark.
[00:06:10.000] I did not even know that Wilders had something to do with this organization,
[00:06:14.000] until I read it this morning in De Volkskrant. Lars Hedegaard has asked me
[00:06:20.000] to be on the advisory board of this organization.
[00:06:24.000] I did that, but I never developed any activity within this organization.
[00:06:31.000] The Magistrate tells me that he looked up that press release on the Internet.
[00:06:37.000] Under the press release, separate from this article, is a list of names of the Board of Advisors,
[00:06:43.000] with my name. I’ve never seen this press release.
[00:06:48.000] I also never signed a call to support Wilders.
[00:06:53.000] The Magistrate tells me that on the Internet it is possible to click further
[00:06:57.000] to support the petition. I certainly have not done that.
[00:07:03.000] Simon Admiraal” — the next expert, who also is heard by the Magistrate —
[00:07:09.000] “was a doctoral student of mine, from 2004 to 2008, at Utrecht University.
[00:07:16.000] I agreed with him not to see each other for a while in connection with this case.
[00:07:22.000] Ms. Sultan” — the third expert who has been heard — “I do not know personally.
[00:07:27.000] I have read her book and I watched the broadcast on Al-Jazeera”.
[00:07:34.000] Until here on the background and contacts of Mr. Jansen,
[00:07:39.000] and then the hearing continues on the contents. The title reads:
[00:07:46.000] “About the statements Wilders had made, as included in the summons.
[00:07:52.000] You [the Magistrate] ask me if I come across quotes that are not true.
[00:08:01.000] There are tens of thousands of books, says Mr. Jansen, who say the same things,
[00:08:05.000] and some of those things are controversial.”
[00:08:09.000] And thenceforth [I have to take a zip of water] questions of Mr. Moszkowicz…
[00:08:13.000]
[00:08:21.000] Then questions of Mr. Moszkowicz based on the individual citations
[00:08:25.000] in the subpoena, and here are briefly described.
[00:08:31.000] On questions by Mr. Moszkowicz, page 2, last quote: “Islam wants to dominate” till “civilization.”
[00:08:40.000] Mr. Jansen replies: “Muhammad, 570-632 AD, said ‘I have been commanded
[00:08:50.000] to make war against the people until they testify there is no God but Allah
[00:08:54.000] and that Muhammad is Allah’s messenger. Only by speaking out with this confession
[00:09:00.000] may they make their goods and blood untouchable for me’.
[00:09:05.000] That means you may not just take it away. There is no imam who will refute this statement.
[00:09:15.000] Also if you turn on the Dutch Muslim Broadcaster, you will hear this.
[00:09:20.000] From the pulpit, this phrase is often proclaimed. I also point at the Quran, Sura 9:29,
[00:09:28.000] which states that war must be waged to prohibit what God and his Messenger have forbidden.
[00:09:34.000] From these texts indeed speaks the will to dominate.
[00:09:39.000] I also refer in this context to a leading book, ‘Reliance of the Traveller’, in this is stated
[00:09:46.000] that it is a duty for every Muslim to join the war, until Islam triumphs.
[00:09:53.000] In numerous sermons, even in the Netherlands, it is said that Western civilization is evil and corrupt
[00:10:01.000] and needs to be overthrown. Islam is proud of the destruction of earlier civilizations
[00:10:06.000] such as Christianity in the Middle East and the Zoroastrian civilization [in Persia].
[00:10:11.000] The theme ‘destruction’ often appears in the Quran, the Sharia handbooks, and standard works of Islam.
[00:10:19.000] All unbelieving societies must be transformed. If it is not by the Quran, then with the stick.
[00:10:26.000] You must consult an imam for the location of this last quote.
[00:10:31.000] I read it first in a Sufi magazine in Egypt, the quote is attributed to Caliph Osman”.
[00:10:40.000] Then another quote that is shown by Mr. Moszkowicz, and that is Fact 1, the first quote:
[00:10:49.000] “Moderate Islam does not exist”. Response by Mr. Jansen: “That is correct.
[00:10:56.000] There are moderate Muslims, but no moderate Islam.
[00:11:00.000] The content of Islam is established. This cannot be altered.
[00:11:04.000] The public prosecutor asks whether I can say something about the percentage
[00:11:08.000] of moderate Muslims in the Netherlands. There was an American study, the Pew Survey
[00:11:15.000] by, among others, Dr. Esposito. He surveyed Muslims worldwide.
[00:11:22.000] This study shows approximately 20% of all Muslims take all Islamic rules literally and seriously.
[00:11:28.000] 60% have other things to do, but agree with Islam. This is called the ‘Silent Majority’.
[00:11:37.000] The remaining 20% wants to turn away, but dares not, out of fear of reprisals.
[00:11:43.000] It is difficult to distill realistic information from the survey”, says Mr. Jansen.
[00:11:49.000] “Many respondents are reserved. In this survey was a question on whether the attacks
[00:11:54.000] on September 11, 2001 were carried out by Jews or by Muslims.
[00:11:59.000] The majority said ‘by Jews’. Many respondents indicated an understanding for these attacks”.
[00:12:07.000] Then another part of a quote is shown to Mr. Jansen:
[00:12:13.000] “There is no distinction between good Islam and bad Islam.” Mr. Jansen:
[00:12:19.000] “That’s correct, there is only one Islam, and to Muslims Islam is synonymous with good.
[00:12:25.000] Without a doubt there will be a differences between Muslims in Indonesia and Morocco,
[00:12:29.000] but the content of Islam is established”. Judge: Then another quote:
[00:12:34.000] “Islam is the Quran and nothing but the Quran”. Mr. Jansen:
[00:12:39.000] “Islam is more than the Quran, namely the Shariah and the traditions.
[00:12:44.000] But the Quran is important because in it is stated that everything comes from God.
[00:12:49.000] Usually the Quran is published in an annotated version.
[00:12:53.000] Then after every Qur’anic verse a comment is included from the tradition.
[00:13:00.000] With the tradition I mean the collected canonical traditions about Muhammad’s actions and expressions.
[00:13:07.000] Most Muslims do not make a sharp distinction between these comments
[00:13:11.000] and the verses themselves, and regard all as the Quran”.
[00:13:17.000] Then the comparison between the Quran and Mein Kampf. Jansen says:
[00:13:22.000] “I understand that the Dutch get angry about this expression. Mein Kampf, however
[00:13:27.000] is freely available in the Middle East and a standard or popular book in every bookstore.
[00:13:32.000] Bill Warner, I know he is not authorized by the court as a witness in this trial,
[00:13:37.000] has compared how many of passages in the Quran and Mein Kampf are anti-Semitic.
[00:13:43.000] In the Qur’an there are more such passages. The article you can find on the Internet,
[00:13:48.000] and the end results of his research have so far not been challenged”.
[00:13:55.000] Then the term “Elimination”. Mr. Jansen says: “The Quran talks of ‘waging war’.
[00:14:00.000] In the Quran are 164 passages that call to war. About the killing of infidels for example
[00:14:08.000] in sura 9:30, ‘anyone who believes that Christ is the Son of God must be slain’.”
[00:14:18.000] Then the term “Dogs”. Mr. Jansen says:
[00:14:22.000] “This word appears once in the Quran, as a naming for non-Muslims.
[00:14:27.000] Furthermore, non-Muslims are called ‘foul beasts’ ….”
Texte anglais de la video 2
00:00 Following quote, page 2, first paragraph, last sentence.
00:07 “This quote by Oriana Fallaci is partly correct,” says Mr. Jansen.
00:14 “The evil not only comes from the Quran, but also and especially from the Sharia.
00:19 The Quran is important in the sense that it says that it is not a human invention
00:24 but the Divine truth.”
00:28 Then the expression “The Fascist Islam”. On this Mr. Jansen says:
00:34 “I’m no expert on fascism. I find ‘fascism’ a curse. It implies there is no room for dissenters.
00:42 In this I see the resemblance with Islam.”
00:48 Next quote: “Sick ideology.” Mr. Jansen says:
00:53 “I do not want to express a value judgment. Islam but is an ideology.
00:59 Islam calls for action by its supporters, and that action is aimed at the entire society.
01:04 From divorce to the organization of banking. Other religions do not demand that in this manner.
01:12 The ideology comes forth from the Quran. That is where it begins, but also the Shariah
01:17 and the traditions must be counted in. I have just shown that, and why,
01:22 many Muslims view the Sharia and the traditions with the Quran as one.”
01:28 Then a quote: “Ban that wretched book.” Mr. Jansen says:
01:33 “My personal opinion is that banning is not a good proposal. People should rather read the Quran,
01:39 for in the Netherlands already much is forbidden which the Quran calls for, such as killing infidels
01:45 or the cutting off of hands.” This quote is regarding to Fact 1 on the summons.
01:53 Then with respect to Fact 2 on the summons. There the questioning continues on to page 3,
02:01 second paragraph, and in the sequel I understand it’s about the demographic
02:07 development of Muslims in Europe. And Mr. Jansen says the following about this:
02:11 “I was recently at a conference organized by the Burke Foundation.
02:16 Statistics were presented on the demographics of Muslims in Europe.
02:22 You can ask Bart Jan Spruyt [of the BF] about this aspect. The Islamic world is growing,
02:27 Europe is shrinking. This has for example to do with the Dutch having
02:30 an average of 2 children per family, and Muslims have more.
02:35 American demographers have calculated this, there are ever-increasing numbers of Muslims in Europe.
02:40 This can be problematic, because as I said, 20% of them believe literally in what Islam commands
02:47 and want to carry that out. These people want to call the shots over others.
02:52 There is no religion that wants to go that far with domination as Islam.
02:57 What in the quote is wrong is that Muslims will draw to the countryside.
03:02 Islam is primarily an urban religion.” As Mr. Jansen says.
03:08 He further says: “In the Netherlands, politics and religion in principle are separated,
03:13 but in Islam this is not so. In Islamic countries the secret service can take action
03:18 when imams in sermons proclaim things that are not appreciated.
03:23 In the Netherlands this in principle is not so. In Dutch mosques anything can be said
03:28 without the state being able to interfere. This is why many Muslims,
03:33 especially radical leaders, move to Europe.” According to Mr. Jansen.
03:38
03:47 Then page 4, first paragraph, and that’s the quote in which professor Israeli is cited,
03:57 then Mr. Jansen says: “Professor Israeli bases this statement on expressions of Sayyid Qutb.”
04:05 Judge: I do not know how to exactly to pronounce it but it’s spelled q-u-t-b.
04:16 [Mr. Jansen continues] “A prominent man, the most widely read Muslim writer ever.
04:21 He said that the Muslims have tried twice to win the battle
04:25 and that now the third round, the final battle, is being fought.
04:29 On a question from the prosecutor on what powers would be behind this invasion attempt,
04:35 I can not give an explicit answer, but I do can point to the document ‘Le Projet’ [The Project]
04:42 from the 30s or 40s of the 20th century. This document comes among others
04:48 from the father of Tariq Ramadan. In this is stated
04:52 that Muslims must make use of Western freedoms.
04:56 Once you have a large group, you automatically get the 20% who will fight for Islam,
05:03 [who] will attempt to impose the rules of Islam. As an example, I can mention
05:09 that there are Muslim countries that do not take [their] people back.”
05:16 Then over to page 4, quote “The Muslim population doubles every generation”.
05:25 Asked about this, Mr. Jansen says: “On this I cannot really say anything.
05:30 There are articles stating how large the percentage of Muslims within a society must be
05:36 in order to expect problems.”
05:40 Further to page 4, third paragraph from the bottom, quote: “Islam is a violent religion”.
05:48 Mr. Jansen: “Where the Bible merely contains dreams or stories containing violence,
05:53 the Qur’an contains commands to violence in the imperative.
05:58 It is an obligation, and the reward is great. I can quote Roger Scruton about this:
06:05 ‘Christianity is a religion of failure, but became a success, Islam is a religion of success,
06:12 but leads to monstrosities, and thus to failure.’” As Mr. Jansen stated.
06:18 “Fortunately not all Muslims take the command to violence seriously, but some unfortunately do.
06:25 There is an expression: ‘first a warning with the tongue, then a spanking by the hand
06:32 and finally murder with the sword’. I will look up for you [the Magistrate]
06:38 exactly where that is stated. A Muslim will undoubtedly say that it’s in the Quran.”
06:47 Then to page 5, quote: “This book incites to hatred and murder”. Mr. Jansen:
06:56 “Yes. Anyone who reads ten pages in the Quran will see that this is true,
07:00 as long as it is only about unbelievers.”
07:04 Then on page 6 of the summons, on the Quran and the size of the Donald Duck [comic].
07:12 Mr. Jansen answers: “There of course are verses that are not hateful.
07:16 Care for the orphan, giving of alms. If you were to leave out all hateful verses from the Quran,
07:23 it would be considerably thinner. Then about one quarter to one-fifth would remain.”
07:32 Next quote, page 6, “The Quran is not a dead letter”. Mr. Jansen says:
07:39 “Every Muslim father wants his son to learn the Quran by heart.
07:44 In everyday parlance the Quran is often quoted. If you ask a Muslim
07:50 whether Sharia law must be applied, he will say ‘Yes’. When you then ask
07:55 if a thief’s hand then must be cut off, he sometimes says ‘No’,
08:00 because he doesn’t know that this is in the Sharia. If you say that it’s in the Sharia,
08:05 he then will say, ‘Well, then so be it’. For resistance against the Shariah is apostasy,
08:12 and for that, according to the Sharia, the death penalty is required. Historians of religion
08:18 will say that the religion is what believers make of it. But Muslims believe that Islam
08:24 — thus everything written — is valid, and exists without possibility of influence by its followers.
08:34. On questions by the prosecutor that he understood that in Indonesia
08:38 a mild form of Islam is adhered to, I say that there also Islam becomes ever more strict.
08:47 The imams there say the same as in other Muslim countries, more headscarves appear there,
08:52 and to take the wind out the sails of the fundamentalist Muslim groups,
08:57 the [Indonesian] government is taking Islamizing measures. Therein lies a danger.”
09:06 Next quote from page 12 of the summons, on Moroccan boys, and then the quote:
09:17 “They beat up people because of their sexual orientation” Mr. Jansen says:
09:24 “It’s difficult to respond to that. I mention as example a fatwa issued by an imam, Al-Moumni.
09:32 When a young boy asked whether in the context of jihad one may commit debauchery with girls,
09:37 he answered that it is better to just get married. He then does not explicitly forbid it.
09:44 Many Moroccan boys often are unconsciously busy with their religion.
09:49 There are known examples of banging on the windows of non-Muslims in the neighborhood.
09:54 This cannot really be called criminal, but eventually the non-Muslims will move out.
10:00 Homosexuality may not become public. In Iran there is the death penalty for it,
10:06 and this is also carried out. Al-Moumni said gay sexuality is a disease,
10:13 thus you cannot help it. Which he himself found progressive.
10:18 The Quran says that sodomy is a grave sin, worse than adultery.
10:25 Who commits sodomy must be slain, and lesbian behavior is equivalent to adultery,
10:30 for this is also the death penalty. You can find this for instance in the book
10:35 ‘Reliance of the Traveller’, a standard work on the Sharia for Muslims.”
10:43 Then back to page 3, the quote, “Their behavior stems from their religion and culture”,
10:54 again on Moroccan boys. Mr. Jansen responds:
10:59 “That’s somewhat correct. This involves in particular the efforts at harassment.
11:05 Banging on windows and throwing of stones. This is being done primarily by brats,
11:10 but their parents approve of this behavior. This behavior is insufficient to take up arms against,
11:15 but is enough to make people move out. We would love it if we could find something
11:21 outside of Islam which explains the behavior, but Islam approves it,
11:26 and provides a justification, also when it comes to snatching purses.
11:31 When the Magistrate asks me whether a Moroccan boy will ever snatch a purse of a Muslim,
11:37 I say that this is possible, but I consider that rather unlikely.”
11:52 The hearing continues on the film Fitna. On this Mr. Jansen says the following.
11:58 “I’ve seen this film in the studio in Hilversum, on request by the NOS (broadcaster).
12:03 I was asked whether I wanted to comment, whether the translations were accurate
12:07 and if I ever seen the images before. I do not dare to guarantee that the version I’ve seen
12:14 later in edited or photoshopped form started to circulate on the Internet.
12:20 Whether the Sura translations are adequate?” Mr. Jansen: “Yes.
12:25 Sura 8 verse 60: the singer in the film only repeats the word ‘terrorizing’
12:33 while in that Quran-verse it only appears once.
12:38 Terrorizing,” according to Mr. Jansen, “is a correct translation of ‘tuhibuna’.
12:45 You of course can always try a synonym such as ‘strike fear’ or ‘make scared’,
12:50 but an Arab will translate this word as ‘terrorizing’.
12:56 How do I know images are shown of what apparently are imams?
13:03 I haven’t seen their diploma, but the clothing and ways of talking raise
13:08 the impression in me that those are imams. The book shown with oriental writing
13:14 is of course the Quran.
13:18 It disappoints me that the Prosecutor did not have this researched well in advance.”
13:24 Mr. Jansen continues: “In Muslim circles I have never seen anyone give the Hitler salute.”
13:29 And then further also says: “Statements about Jews and violence against Jews
13:34 are not uncommon in the Muslim world. These statements are not out of context.
13:40 Every believer finds of his own belief that it is superior. If you do not pursue Islam,
13:46 then you are a bad person. If you as a Muslim leave Islam, there is the death penalty.
13:52 Is a criminal court does not assign this punishment, an individual must execute this.
13:59 Allah has ordered that Islam should be spread globally, if necessary by arms.
14:05 Whether I can mention sources for this?” Judge: Then Mr. Jansen mentions
14:09 Sura 2:16, 4:89, 9:36. “Fortunately, many Muslims are too decent to execute this.
14:21 Christianity is less obligational.” Judge: Mr. Jansen talks about preaching the word to all peoples.
14:29 Next question, whether violence against women is common practice in Islam.
14:33 Mr. Jansen says: “You’d have to ask a sociologist. The Quran does state
14:38 that if you’re afraid that your wife does something that is not allowed, you must hit her.
14:55 Sura 4:34. There are men who take this seriously, and preachers proclaim this verse.”
Texte anglais de la video 3
[00:00:00.000] “The West dominates, but according to Muslims, Islam should do this,” as Mr. Jansen says.
[00:00:08.000] Whether radical groups have any influence on mosques in the Netherlands? Mr. Jansen replies:
[00:00:15.000] “Yes, especially Saudi Arabian Islam, Wahhabism, and the radical Salafists,
[00:00:23.000] of that there is an increasing influence. I base that on newspaper articles,
[00:00:29.000] reports from the AIVD [Dutch Intelligence Service], but also on conversations
[00:00:33.000] with people in that world, for example Abdul Jabbar van de Ven. He told me proudly
[00:00:39.000] that he studied in Saudi Arabia and pleads for the introduction of Sharia law
[00:00:45.000] and a ban on music. For that matter, this can be traced back
[00:00:49.000] to a statement by Muhammad.” And then a quote:
[00:00:54.000] “I have been sent to remove the lute, the jar and the cross.” Mr. Jansen continues:
[00:01:00.000] “I also talked to two guys who make a television program called ‘Sal and Ab’.
[00:01:06.000] They too were proud that they had been to Saudi Arabia.”
[00:01:13.000] Up until this point the questions asked were in response to specific citations in the subpoena.
[00:01:20.000] There now follow a few general questions. First questions by the Prosecutor.
[00:01:28.000] On questions by the prosecutor, Mr. Jansen says the following:
[00:01:33.000] Asked whether in the Muslim world there is talk of secularism, Mr. Jansen says:
[00:01:38.000] “No, the opposite is true. I know there are friends of Islam who claim that there is
[00:01:45.000] a slow extinction of the faith, but I think they are wrong.
[00:01:50.000] The mood currently is more religious than ever. When I was in Cairo in 1966,
[00:01:56.000] there was not a headscarf to be seen. Now there is not woman seen without a headscarf.
[00:02:01.000] It is a symbol of the introduction of the Sharia. There are libraries full of books
[00:02:06.000] that defend my position and only a few shelves that say there is secularism.
[00:02:12.000] Those few shelves, however, are in charge in the Netherlands.
[00:02:16.000] They get the money for scientific research.”
[00:02:21.000] Mr. Jansen continues: “You ask me about the separation between religion and politics.
[00:02:26.000] Muslims know that they are two different things, but that’s about all.
[00:02:31.000] You must also keep in mind that at the beginning of Islam, in Muhammad’s days,
[00:02:36.000] society was stateless. In Islam, politics and religion therefore went hand in hand.
[00:02:44.000] The sultans were always in control. There was some rope-pulling with religious leaders,
[00:02:50.000] but there could not be any distance between religious and secular leaders.”
[00:02:56.000] Judge: I must read the word ‘and’ thus ‘religious and secular’
[00:03:05.000] “The sultan is the boss, and the imams take the place of parliament.
[00:03:11.000] In Iran this is different, because there the ayatollahs are in control.”
[00:03:19.000] “The Magistrate tells me my name appears in the summons on page 10.”
[00:03:30.000] Mr. Jansen then says: “This quote is the headline of an article I wrote,
[00:03:35.000] Judge, and I didn’t know in advance that this would end up in the film” [Fitna].
[00:03:42.000] Then a question by the Prosecutor: “The Prosecutor asks me how it could happen
[00:03:48.000] that the medieval Christians and Jews could have a separate status.”
[00:03:53.000] Mr. Jansen relies: “I refer to sura 9:29. Christians and Jews may temporarily,
[00:03:58.000] Judge, for a fee, be exempt from Islamic rules.
[00:04:02.000] It is so, however, that they can not be exempted from tax.
[00:04:07.000] One must continue to admit that Islam is superior. This is symbolized by the collector of the tax,
[00:04:13.000] Who strikes a blow on the neck as a symbol of decapitation.”
[00:04:18.000] Mr. Jansen continues: “I know the friends of Islam use this example as a sign of tolerance,
[00:04:24.000] but rather it is not, according to my lights. It remains a symbol of Islamic superiority.
[00:04:31.000] It is the myth of Andalusia that Christians, Jews and Muslims can live together.
[00:04:37.000] Weinstein, a classicist in Dublin, wrote about this.
[00:04:42.000] This myth came to live in Russia at the time of the Tsars,
[00:04:48.000] to make it possible for Jews to study [at the university].
[00:04:53.000] In this context I point out a study by Rodney Stark, who has calculated
[00:04:59.000] that there were no fewer pogroms in Andalusia than elsewhere in Europe.
[00:05:06.000] The Prosecutor asks me about Granada, whether that was the peak of the Jewish flowering
[00:05:12.000] within Islam. I do no know so much about that,” answers Mr. Jansen.
[00:05:20.000] Then there are a number of questions by the defense [Mr. Moszkowicz]
[00:05:27.000] On questions by Mr. Moszkowicz: “You tell me that a number of Dutch Islam experts,
[00:05:31.000] including Professor Leemhuis, have circulated a so-called fact sheet.
[00:05:37.000] I had a quick look on this fact sheet, but there are so many spelling errors in it
[00:05:41.000] that I didn’t pay much attention to it. You tell me that the fact sheet says
[00:05:45.000] that in the film Fitna, sura 47:4 is only partially quoted, and thus out of context.”
[00:05:54.000] The response by Mr. Jansen: “That it is partially quoted is correct,
[00:05:59.000] following the quote in the film, there should be quoted that when the opponents are overcome,
[00:06:05.000] they should be sold as slaves. The second half of this verse in my eyes
[00:06:10.000] Does not make the first part less bad. The whole verse says nothing more than
[00:06:15.000] that you only stop cutting off heads once the enemy surrenders,
[00:06:21.000] or has converted to Islam. It thus is not taken out of context.”
[00:06:27.000] Thus Mr. Jansen, and he illustrates: “In sermons and in general by Muslims,
[00:06:33.000] this verse is quoted as is done in Fitna. That is, only the first half.
[00:06:39.000] There are also two verse-enumerations, see for example the translation
[00:06:44.000] of the Quran by Kramers I edited, and scholars from Kufa,
[00:06:48.000] who view this as one verse, but scholars form Basra see it as two verses.
[00:06:53.000] Sura 47:4, as quoted in Fitna, and Sura 47:5, which is what follows.”
[00:07:05.000] Mr. Moszkowicz seemingly continues, and then Mr. Jansen says:
[00:07:10.000] “You tell me that on the fact sheet is stated that in Sura 2:256 states
[00:07:18.000] that there is no compulsion in the religion. When the Quran was revealed in Mecca
[00:07:27.000] it called for freedom for the followers of Muhammad. When the Quran
[00:07:32.000] was revealed in Medina, death to the infidels was preached.
[00:07:36.000] Ultimately, that last position in Medina has won. As time progressed,
[00:07:42.000] the original texts were annulled by later revelations. This is called “abrogation”.
[00:07:51.000] Leemhuis [involved with that ‘fact sheet’] should know that Sura 2:256 has been abrogated.
[00:07:57.000] For Muslims, there is no discussion about this. I will forward you later the
[00:08:02.000] the location of this abrogation, but you should also ask Leemhuis, under oath.”
[00:08:08.000] Then Dr. Jansen in this respect sent a letter to the Magistrate
[00:08:20.000] with respect to that Quran verse 2:256 “There is no compulsion in religion”
[00:08:26.000] in which he gives a detailed information about that verse.
[00:08:30.000] Do you want me to also read out that later? [Mr. Moszkowicz: “Please.”]
[00:08:34.000] All right, I first continue the hearing, then I go to that explanation.
[00:08:43.000] Mr. Jansen has just said, this is an abrogation, and then the next point
[00:08:54.000] from the fact sheet as shown by Mr. Moszkowicz, says that
[00:08:58.000] the Quran also calls to peace and reconciliation. For instance in the verse 2:84,
[00:09:05.000] “You shall not shed each other’s blood”. Mr. Jansen says concerning this:
[00:09:09.000] “That is not correct, this verse applies only to Muslims among themselves.”
[00:09:14.000] And regarding Sura 10:25 Mr. Jansen says
[00:09:19.000] — there it says ‘God calls for the house of peace’ —
[00:09:25.000] “The residence or the house of peace is Islam, in opposition to the house of war.
[00:09:30.000] This verse thus means that you must become Muslim and should come and live
[00:09:36.000] within the Muslim community.” Then Sura 2:224,
[00:09:44.000] “Make not Allah an impediment to … making peace between the people”.
[00:09:54.000] And Mr. Jansen responds on this:
[00:09:58.000] “I read this complete verse now in the Quran I have with me.
[00:10:03.000] There it’s about an oath made in haste. This does not have to prevent you
[00:10:08.000] from still doing the good. Usually then it is about too quickly banishing your wife.
[00:10:13.000] I do not see the word ‘peacemaking’, I’d rather translate the word as
[00:10:18.000] ‘make it up again’ or ‘repair’.
[00:10:22.000] Then Mr. Jansen is shown Sura 3:103, “Think of God’s grace to you
[00:10:30.000] when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together, and you became brothers by His grace”.
[00:10:37.000] Mr. Jansen says: “According to the commentaries, this is said against the various groups in Medina. It addresses to Muslims. ‘Becoming brothers’ means nothing more
[00:10:49.000] than the conversion to Islam. ‘Think of God’s grace’ usually means
[00:10:53.000] ‘read the Quran’. It is an internal Muslim verse.”
[00:11:01.000] Mr. Jansen continues: “As Western philologist you may think ‘I use these verses
[00:11:06.000] to illustrate the peacefulness of Islam’, and maybe Leemhuis also sincerely means this.
[00:11:14.000] It is important however that these texts are addressed to Muslims, and it’s about
[00:11:19.000] what Muslims think of them. I do not know any verses,” he says,
[00:11:25.000] “which call for peace with non-Muslims. Co-existence is not in the Islamic dictionary.
[00:11:32.000] In practice it does happen, but only when all the armies of the non-Muslims
[00:11:36.000] — for example the armies of the West — are stronger.”
[00:11:40.000] Thus the hearing of Mr. Jansen, also undersigned by him.
Texte anglais de la video 4
[00:00:00.000] the Quran also calls to peace and reconciliation. For instance in the verse 2:84,
[00:00:05.000] “You shall not shed each other’s blood”. Mr. Jansen says concerning this:
[00:00:09.000] “That is not correct, this verse applies only to Muslims among themselves.”
[00:00:14.000] And regarding Sura 10:25 Mr. Jansen says
[00:00:19.000] — there it says ‘God calls for the house of peace’ —
[00:00:25.000] “The residence or the house of peace is Islam, in opposition to the house of war.
[00:00:30.000] This verse thus means that you must become Muslim and should come and live
[00:00:36.000] within the Muslim community.” Then Sura 2:224,
[00:00:44.000] “Make not Allah an impediment to … making peace between the people”.
[00:00:54.000] And Mr. Jansen responds on this:
[00:00:58.000] “I read this complete verse now in the Quran I have with me.
[00:01:03.000] There it’s about an oath made in haste. This does not have to prevent you
[00:01:08.000] from still doing the good. Usually then it is about too quickly banishing your wife.
[00:01:13.000] I do not see the word ‘peacemaking’, I’d rather translate the word as
[00:01:18.000] ‘make it up again’ or ‘repair’.
[00:01:22.000] Then Mr. Jansen is shown Sura 3:103, “Think of God’s grace to you
[00:01:30.000] when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together,
[00:01:34.000] and you became brothers by His grace”.
[00:01:37.000] Mr. Jansen says: “According to the commentaries, this is said against the various groups in Medina.
[00:01:42.000] It addresses to Muslims. ‘Becoming brothers’ means nothing more
[00:01:49.000] than the conversion to Islam. ‘Think of God’s grace’ usually means
[00:01:53.000] ‘read the Quran’. It is an internal Muslim verse.”
[00:02:01.000] Mr. Jansen continues: “As Western philologist you may think ‘I use these verses
[00:02:06.000] to illustrate the peacefulness of Islam’, and maybe Leemhuis also sincerely means this.
[00:02:14.000] It is important however that these texts are addressed to Muslims, and it’s about
[00:02:19.000] what Muslims think of them. I do not know any verses,” he says,
[00:02:25.000] “which call for peace with non-Muslims. Co-existence is not in the Islamic dictionary.
[00:02:32.000] In practice it does happen, but only when all the armies of the non-Muslims
[00:02:36.000] — for example the armies of the West — are stronger.”
[00:02:40.000] Thus the hearing of Mr. Jansen, also undersigned by him.
[00:02:50.000] Well, then there is a comment made by the magistrate that in consultation with you the fact sheet is not attached as a writ.
[00:03:01.000] Then I go to the note by Professor Jansen on the Quranic verse 2:256
[00:03:11.000] which was mentioned in the hearing, and on May 10 2010
[00:03:14.000] in what appears to be an email, he wrote to the magistrate in Amsterdam.
[00:03:28.000] 1. Memorandum on the Qur’anic verse 2:256, “There is no compulsion in religion”.
[00:03:38.000] Islam teaches that this verse is ‘abrogated’, i.e. ‘canceled’ by later revelations.
[00:03:44.000] Note: Sura 2, where this Quran verse occurs, is according to friend and foe alike the first sura
[00:03:50.000] that was revealed in Medina. I consider it impossible that the complainants
[00:03:55.000] or the Prosecutor could find an Islamic lawyer or an academic Arabist who contradicts this.
[00:04:01.000] I regard it therefore as superfluous to spend additional work, time and attention
[00:04:07.000] to this issue of dating and chronology. The dating of Sura 2 is widely undisputed.
[00:04:13.000] See for example W. Montgomery Watt, Introduction to the Qur’an’
[00:04:18.000] Page 2:20, top: “All chronological classifications consider sura 2 as the first of the Medinan suras”.
[00:04:34.000] And Jansen then follows with this note: Also the Quran translation by Fred Leemhuis
[00:04:39.000] states that Sura 9 dates from Medina (p. 129), and was revealed after Sura 5.
[00:04:44.000] Of Sura 5, Leemhuis then says that this was handed down after 48 (p. 77), and so on.
[00:04:51.000] Also according to Leemhuis, Sura 2 thus is older than Sura 9.
[00:04:57.000] Then Jansen continues: Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, established himself in Medina in 622,
[00:05:02.000] where he died in 632. Sura 9, according to friend and foe alike dates from a later phase
[00:05:09.000] of that period in Medina, in any case, according to most scholars, after the conquest of Mecca
[00:05:15.000] by the Muslims in 630. There are even scholars who believe that Sura 9
[00:05:20.000] is the last Sura that was revealed in Medina. Eventual contradictions between Sura 9 and Sura 2
[00:05:27.000] are therefore decided, in the sense that the rules as laid down in Sura 9,
[00:05:32.000] must be the prevailing rules of Islam and the Sharia.
[00:05:37.000] How can we be so sure that this is so? In the ‘Reliance of the Traveller’,
[00:05:43.000] the oft-mentioned English-Arabic Sharia handbook by N.H.M. Keller, we read on p.629:
[00:05:54.000] “When two primary texts seem to contend, [the judge] gives precedence to:
[00:06:00.000] those which supercede previous rulings.”
[00:06:04.000] The word ‘previous’ here is crucial for the understanding. This book, ‘Reliance’,
[00:06:08.000] I mention here only because of the fact that in this case it is already more or less known,
[00:06:13.000] but there no handbooks on Islam and the Sharia exist that are made by Muslims for Muslims
[00:06:19.000] that on this matter state anything different.
[00:06:23.000] The principle of abrogation is explicated in the Qur’an itself; it is not the invention of outsiders.
[00:06:29.000] Qur’an 2:106, in the translation of Leemhuis and then a quote:
[00:06:35.000] “Whatever of our revelations that we abolish or cause to be forgotten we replace by
[00:06:40.000] something better or similar”. End quote.
[00:06:44.000] ‘Abolish’ is the word with which in both Leemhuis as Kramers clarify as “abrogate”.
[00:06:53.000] Qur’an 10:52: “God abolishes”.
[00:07:00.000] Sura 9 dates from the period in Medina, which means: 622-632 AD.
[00:07:07.000] It is not the first sura of that period, because Sura 2 is considered as such.
[00:07:12.000] Sura 9 in time is thus after Sura 2, and Sura 9 consequently abrogates the rules
[00:07:18.000] contained in Sura 2, when these are in conflict with provisions contained in Sura 9.
[00:07:25.000] Sura 9:29 in the translation of Leemhuis, contains the phrase
[00:07:31.000] “Fight against those who do not believe in God” and who “Do not forbid what God
[00:07:36.000] and his Messenger forbid.” This forbidding cannot be made consistent with
[00:07:42.000] “there is no compulsion in religion”, of 2:256. Forbidding, after all, implies coercion.
[00:07:50.000] The imperative with which verse 9:29 begins, ‘qaatiluu’,
[00:07:69.000] is better translated as “waged war upon”. The root ‘qtl’, which the word is related to,
[00:08:05.000] means ‘killing’. The specific grammatical form being used here, according to grammarians,
[00:08:12.000] could just as well be based on a meaning such as “trying to kill each other”.
[00:08:20.000] Also here, neither the complaining party nor the Prosecutor will find an Islamic legal scholar
[00:08:26.000] or an academic Arabist who contradicts this. Thus says Mr. Jansen. And he continues:
[00:08:33.000] That this struggle or war at a given moment ends, is in practice correct.
[00:08:39.000] In theory the Islamic legal scholars and scholars of Islam nonetheless establish
[00:08:43.000] that the duty to wage this struggle will remain until the Last Day.
[00:08:47.000] In the ‘Reliance’, the author states on page 602, the last lines of the page,
[00:08:53.000] that the obligation to wage Jihad in the English text: “the time and place for it”,
[00:08:59.000] remains until the return of Jesus, in the English text: “the final descent of Jesus,
[00:09:05.000] upon whom be peace”. Also here, the complaining party or the Prosecutor
[00:09:11.000] will not find an Islamic legal scholar or scholar of Islam or academic Arabist
[00:09:15.000] who contradicts it. The Islamic legal scholars and scholars of Islam
[00:09:20.000] therefore traditionally make a sharp distinction between the
[00:09:24.000] ‘the House of Peace’ and ‘the House of War’.
[00:09:28.000] This distinction is the foundation of Islamic international law.
[00:09:34.000] About this dichotomy an extensive literature exists. I can hardly imagine that an academic Arabist
[00:09:28.000] or an Islamic legal scholar or a scholar of Islam desires to publicly deceive a court on this matter.
[00:09:50.000]
[00:09:54.000] Then I get to the last paragraph, and its title is “In the issue that correction
[00:10:01.000] of un-Islamic behavior should be done first verbally and then by force”:
[00:10:08.000] From the canonical tradition-collection of Muslim, 9th century AD…
[00:10:17.000] A very comprehensive English quotation, would you want me to read that?
[00:10:22.000] Moszkowicz: “Not the English quotation, according to me.”
[00:10:27.000] Then I will say here what Professor Jansen said about this:
[00:10:33.000] The announcement of hand, tongue and heart is also in the canonical collection
[00:10:38.000] of Abuu Daawuud: Kitaab as-Salaat (Al-Khaalidii)
[00:10:45.000] “Who sees a forbidden thing he can change with his hand, let him change it
[00:10:52.000] with his hand: and if he cannot, then with his tongue, and if he cannot,
[00:10:58.000] then with his heart, and that is the weakest form of faith.” End quote.
[00:11:04.000] I am prepared if necessary — according to Professor Jansen — when the Prosecutor
[00:11:08.000] or the complaining party disputes this, to further elaborate these issues.
[00:11:14.000] And he still has a closing comment, and that final point is:
[00:11:19.000] At last I can inform you about my surprise that a Dutch court steeps itself so much
[00:11:24.000] in the details of religious and exegetical issues. This is contrary to everything
[00:11:29.000] I have been taught in elementary school, college and at the university
[00:11:33.000] about the separation of powers and the separation between religion and politics,
[00:11:37.000] between church and state, etc. — Thus said Professor Jansen,
[00:11:42.000] with all kinds of esteem, Amsterdam, May 10, 2010. That … Professor Jansen.
[00:11:53.000] Moszkowicz: “Thank you very much. President, with gratitude for what has already happened,
[00:11:58.000] there is a letter, and I’d like to request you, at this time also to read out,
[00:12:06.000] because the representatives of complainants assumed a particular relationship
[00:12:10.000] between Mr. Jansen and my client Mr. Wilders, there has been a correspondence about it,
[00:12:17.000] and on May 10, 2010, the Magistrate, Mr. Martens wrote a letter
[00:12:23.000] to Mister Pestman [lawyer for the complainants] about the alleged link,
[00:12:27.000] and that letter is not long, but I would like to disclose it.
[00:12:34.000] Yes, is this is a letter that belongs to the pleadings at this time?
[00:12:39.000] Umm, yes, it is in my file, and then I think it also is in yours.
[00:12:44.000] Okay, we will have a look at it.
[00:12:48.000] Umm… just an announcement of order here first, perhaps because I currently am doing less,
[00:12:53.000] but I’m starting to get it a little colder, is it just me or …
[00:12:58.000] it gets a little cooler here, okay, well above there [public] they also say that,
[00:13:01.000] so we will try to ask to do something about that later, my proposal is now to pause now for lunch,
[00:13:07.000] I’m taking a look at the members of the OM if that is okay, the defense, okay? Yes?
[00:13:14.000] Then we’ll pause until 13:00, I urge you all to be back in time,
[00:13:20.000] thus at least before 13:00, and then we will continue reading the files,
[00:13:23.000] and will in the meanwhile also have taken a look at your request.
[00:13:27.000] Moszkowicz: “It is of May 10…”
[00:13:29.000] I have made a note, yes.
Texte en anglais de la video 1
[00:00:00.000] The expert witness has declared as follows:
[00:00:07.000] “My name is Johanes Julliaan Gijsbert Jansen, born November 17, 1942, living in Amsterdam, retired”.
[00:00:16.000] He has submitted a CV which is attached to the hearing and he says in a footnote to it:
[00:00:24.000] “I was a professor in Utrecht from 2003-2008. With the editing of the Kramers’ Quran
[00:00:32.000] translation, I mean annotating, removing errors, and so on”.
[00:00:37.000] This is another footnote of the CV. It seems clearer to me if I pick that up first,
[00:00:42.000] and also read that out. [Moszkowicz: “Please”]
[00:00:47.000] “Professor doctor Hans Jansen is an Arabist; he studied Arabic and Semitic languages
[00:00:53.000] in Amsterdam, Leiden and Cairo. The common thread throughout his career
[00:00:59.000] is the study of religion in general and Islam in particular.
[00:01:05.000] He is one of the few Islam-watchers in the Netherlands who dares to look without rose-tinted glasses
[00:01:12.000] at recent developments within Islam. At the University of Utrecht,
[00:01:17.000] he was a professor of contemporary Islamic thought.
[00:01:22.000] He also worked at the Universities of Leiden and Groningen.
[00:01:27.000] From 1991 to 1997, he was a member of the National Advisory Council for Development Cooperation,
[00:01:34.000] and participated in the controversy over the meaning and meaninglessness of international aid.
[00:01:42.000] In addition to his academic career, he engaged in numerous ancillary activities in the Middle East,
[00:01:47.000] including for the Red Cross in Iraq in 1990. He has visited almost all countries
[00:01:52.000] in the Middle East for longer or shorter periods, and resided for almost four years in Cairo,
[00:01:58.000] where he led the Dutch Institute from 1979 to 1982.
[00:02:06.000] He wrote among other things a well-noted biography of Muhammad, which was translated into German,
[00:02:12.000] and a standard work on the ideology and theology behind the 1981 assassination
[00:02:18.000] of Egyptian President Sadat. His books are not only translated into German,
[00:02:23.000] but also in Yugoslav, Turkish, and Indonesian.
[00:02:28.000] He has published articles in including [newspapers/magazines] De Volkskrant, Trouw,
[00:02:32.000] HP/De Tijd and the now defunct weekly Opinio.
[00:02:37.000] His book ‘Islam for pigs, monkeys, donkeys and other beasts’ became a modest bestseller
[00:02:44.000] in the Netherlands in 2008. The peculiar title of this book is derived from the Koran,
[00:02:51.000] which for Muslims is considered the literal word of God, in which non-Muslims are defined with these animal names.
[00:03:00.000] In 1992 he edited an edition of the authoritative Quran translation of Prof. Kramers.”
[00:03:08.000] Jansen is also a popular commentator on radio and TV programs
[00:03:13.000] such as Nova, Pouw and Witteman, and RTL News.
[00:03:18.000] And on his website you can find the list of publications and an abbreviated CV.
[00:03:26.000] With regard to the Quran translation, Mr. Jansen said in the hearing:
[00:03:35.000] “With the editing of the Quran translation of Kramers, I mean annotating, removing errors, etc.
[00:03:42.000] Kramers wrote this work without having access to the scientific works one should have.
[00:03:50.000] I tried to edit his translation in such way as he himself would have preferred
[00:03:54.000] if he had had access to all works”.
[00:04:00.000] Then he is asked about any possible connections to Mr. Wilders, and he says:
[00:04:08.000] “I know Geert Wilders. The first time I met him he was a member of the VVD fraction,
[00:04:16.000] A member of the Foreign Committee of Parliament. This committee had consulted
[00:04:20.000] a number of experts on religion and politics.
[00:04:24.000] I have met Wilders over the past ten years about 4 to 6 times.
[00:04:29.000] That was about everything. I can remember one time he asked me whether I knew
[00:04:33.000] a suitable Muslim who was willing to talk with him about Islam.
[00:04:39.000] Wilders has sometimes called me and I responded to questions he then asked.
[00:04:43.000] I can’t remember what those questions were and don’t know what he has done with my answers.
[00:04:50.000] I’m regularly called by journalists and politicians with questions on matters concerning Islam.
[00:04:57.000] For example where a particular verse in the Koran is. I answer them.
[00:05:05.000] In answer to a question by the Prosecutor, who points at a letter from Mr. Pestman
[00:05:09.000] of April 20, 2010, ‘whether I have participated in the creation of the movie Fitna.’
[00:05:16.000] That I don’t know. I do not know what people do with the answers I give them.
[00:05:22.000] Wilders has asked me where in the Koran it says that infidels must be slain,
[00:05:27.000] or that they are pigs. I do not know whether he has used my answers for Fitna.
[00:05:33.000] At the least, Wilders did not ask me to advise him for the movie.
[00:05:38.000] I was also been questioned about this by Twan Huys [Dutch TV]; he also insinuated this.
[00:05:44.000] I’m angry about that. This morning there was an article in De Volkskrant
[00:05:49.000] about me and my link to Wilders. I express my amazement that people think
[00:05:54.000] I will be lying today because I talked with Wilders once.
[00:06:00.000] Mr. Moszkowicz tells me this letter states there exists a link between me and Mr. Wilders
[00:06:05.000] via The International Free Press Society in Denmark.
[00:06:10.000] I did not even know that Wilders had something to do with this organization,
[00:06:14.000] until I read it this morning in De Volkskrant. Lars Hedegaard has asked me
[00:06:20.000] to be on the advisory board of this organization.
[00:06:24.000] I did that, but I never developed any activity within this organization.
[00:06:31.000] The Magistrate tells me that he looked up that press release on the Internet.
[00:06:37.000] Under the press release, separate from this article, is a list of names of the Board of Advisors,
[00:06:43.000] with my name. I’ve never seen this press release.
[00:06:48.000] I also never signed a call to support Wilders.
[00:06:53.000] The Magistrate tells me that on the Internet it is possible to click further
[00:06:57.000] to support the petition. I certainly have not done that.
[00:07:03.000] Simon Admiraal” — the next expert, who also is heard by the Magistrate —
[00:07:09.000] “was a doctoral student of mine, from 2004 to 2008, at Utrecht University.
[00:07:16.000] I agreed with him not to see each other for a while in connection with this case.
[00:07:22.000] Ms. Sultan” — the third expert who has been heard — “I do not know personally.
[00:07:27.000] I have read her book and I watched the broadcast on Al-Jazeera”.
[00:07:34.000] Until here on the background and contacts of Mr. Jansen,
[00:07:39.000] and then the hearing continues on the contents. The title reads:
[00:07:46.000] “About the statements Wilders had made, as included in the summons.
[00:07:52.000] You [the Magistrate] ask me if I come across quotes that are not true.
[00:08:01.000] There are tens of thousands of books, says Mr. Jansen, who say the same things,
[00:08:05.000] and some of those things are controversial.”
[00:08:09.000] And thenceforth [I have to take a zip of water] questions of Mr. Moszkowicz…
[00:08:13.000]
[00:08:21.000] Then questions of Mr. Moszkowicz based on the individual citations
[00:08:25.000] in the subpoena, and here are briefly described.
[00:08:31.000] On questions by Mr. Moszkowicz, page 2, last quote: “Islam wants to dominate” till “civilization.”
[00:08:40.000] Mr. Jansen replies: “Muhammad, 570-632 AD, said ‘I have been commanded
[00:08:50.000] to make war against the people until they testify there is no God but Allah
[00:08:54.000] and that Muhammad is Allah’s messenger. Only by speaking out with this confession
[00:09:00.000] may they make their goods and blood untouchable for me’.
[00:09:05.000] That means you may not just take it away. There is no imam who will refute this statement.
[00:09:15.000] Also if you turn on the Dutch Muslim Broadcaster, you will hear this.
[00:09:20.000] From the pulpit, this phrase is often proclaimed. I also point at the Quran, Sura 9:29,
[00:09:28.000] which states that war must be waged to prohibit what God and his Messenger have forbidden.
[00:09:34.000] From these texts indeed speaks the will to dominate.
[00:09:39.000] I also refer in this context to a leading book, ‘Reliance of the Traveller’, in this is stated
[00:09:46.000] that it is a duty for every Muslim to join the war, until Islam triumphs.
[00:09:53.000] In numerous sermons, even in the Netherlands, it is said that Western civilization is evil and corrupt
[00:10:01.000] and needs to be overthrown. Islam is proud of the destruction of earlier civilizations
[00:10:06.000] such as Christianity in the Middle East and the Zoroastrian civilization [in Persia].
[00:10:11.000] The theme ‘destruction’ often appears in the Quran, the Sharia handbooks, and standard works of Islam.
[00:10:19.000] All unbelieving societies must be transformed. If it is not by the Quran, then with the stick.
[00:10:26.000] You must consult an imam for the location of this last quote.
[00:10:31.000] I read it first in a Sufi magazine in Egypt, the quote is attributed to Caliph Osman”.
[00:10:40.000] Then another quote that is shown by Mr. Moszkowicz, and that is Fact 1, the first quote:
[00:10:49.000] “Moderate Islam does not exist”. Response by Mr. Jansen: “That is correct.
[00:10:56.000] There are moderate Muslims, but no moderate Islam.
[00:11:00.000] The content of Islam is established. This cannot be altered.
[00:11:04.000] The public prosecutor asks whether I can say something about the percentage
[00:11:08.000] of moderate Muslims in the Netherlands. There was an American study, the Pew Survey
[00:11:15.000] by, among others, Dr. Esposito. He surveyed Muslims worldwide.
[00:11:22.000] This study shows approximately 20% of all Muslims take all Islamic rules literally and seriously.
[00:11:28.000] 60% have other things to do, but agree with Islam. This is called the ‘Silent Majority’.
[00:11:37.000] The remaining 20% wants to turn away, but dares not, out of fear of reprisals.
[00:11:43.000] It is difficult to distill realistic information from the survey”, says Mr. Jansen.
[00:11:49.000] “Many respondents are reserved. In this survey was a question on whether the attacks
[00:11:54.000] on September 11, 2001 were carried out by Jews or by Muslims.
[00:11:59.000] The majority said ‘by Jews’. Many respondents indicated an understanding for these attacks”.
[00:12:07.000] Then another part of a quote is shown to Mr. Jansen:
[00:12:13.000] “There is no distinction between good Islam and bad Islam.” Mr. Jansen:
[00:12:19.000] “That’s correct, there is only one Islam, and to Muslims Islam is synonymous with good.
[00:12:25.000] Without a doubt there will be a differences between Muslims in Indonesia and Morocco,
[00:12:29.000] but the content of Islam is established”. Judge: Then another quote:
[00:12:34.000] “Islam is the Quran and nothing but the Quran”. Mr. Jansen:
[00:12:39.000] “Islam is more than the Quran, namely the Shariah and the traditions.
[00:12:44.000] But the Quran is important because in it is stated that everything comes from God.
[00:12:49.000] Usually the Quran is published in an annotated version.
[00:12:53.000] Then after every Qur’anic verse a comment is included from the tradition.
[00:13:00.000] With the tradition I mean the collected canonical traditions about Muhammad’s actions and expressions.
[00:13:07.000] Most Muslims do not make a sharp distinction between these comments
[00:13:11.000] and the verses themselves, and regard all as the Quran”.
[00:13:17.000] Then the comparison between the Quran and Mein Kampf. Jansen says:
[00:13:22.000] “I understand that the Dutch get angry about this expression. Mein Kampf, however
[00:13:27.000] is freely available in the Middle East and a standard or popular book in every bookstore.
[00:13:32.000] Bill Warner, I know he is not authorized by the court as a witness in this trial,
[00:13:37.000] has compared how many of passages in the Quran and Mein Kampf are anti-Semitic.
[00:13:43.000] In the Qur’an there are more such passages. The article you can find on the Internet,
[00:13:48.000] and the end results of his research have so far not been challenged”.
[00:13:55.000] Then the term “Elimination”. Mr. Jansen says: “The Quran talks of ‘waging war’.
[00:14:00.000] In the Quran are 164 passages that call to war. About the killing of infidels for example
[00:14:08.000] in sura 9:30, ‘anyone who believes that Christ is the Son of God must be slain’.”
[00:14:18.000] Then the term “Dogs”. Mr. Jansen says:
[00:14:22.000] “This word appears once in the Quran, as a naming for non-Muslims.
[00:14:27.000] Furthermore, non-Muslims are called ‘foul beasts’ ….”
Texte anglais de la video 2
00:00 Following quote, page 2, first paragraph, last sentence.
00:07 “This quote by Oriana Fallaci is partly correct,” says Mr. Jansen.
00:14 “The evil not only comes from the Quran, but also and especially from the Sharia.
00:19 The Quran is important in the sense that it says that it is not a human invention
00:24 but the Divine truth.”
00:28 Then the expression “The Fascist Islam”. On this Mr. Jansen says:
00:34 “I’m no expert on fascism. I find ‘fascism’ a curse. It implies there is no room for dissenters.
00:42 In this I see the resemblance with Islam.”
00:48 Next quote: “Sick ideology.” Mr. Jansen says:
00:53 “I do not want to express a value judgment. Islam but is an ideology.
00:59 Islam calls for action by its supporters, and that action is aimed at the entire society.
01:04 From divorce to the organization of banking. Other religions do not demand that in this manner.
01:12 The ideology comes forth from the Quran. That is where it begins, but also the Shariah
01:17 and the traditions must be counted in. I have just shown that, and why,
01:22 many Muslims view the Sharia and the traditions with the Quran as one.”
01:28 Then a quote: “Ban that wretched book.” Mr. Jansen says:
01:33 “My personal opinion is that banning is not a good proposal. People should rather read the Quran,
01:39 for in the Netherlands already much is forbidden which the Quran calls for, such as killing infidels
01:45 or the cutting off of hands.” This quote is regarding to Fact 1 on the summons.
01:53 Then with respect to Fact 2 on the summons. There the questioning continues on to page 3,
02:01 second paragraph, and in the sequel I understand it’s about the demographic
02:07 development of Muslims in Europe. And Mr. Jansen says the following about this:
02:11 “I was recently at a conference organized by the Burke Foundation.
02:16 Statistics were presented on the demographics of Muslims in Europe.
02:22 You can ask Bart Jan Spruyt [of the BF] about this aspect. The Islamic world is growing,
02:27 Europe is shrinking. This has for example to do with the Dutch having
02:30 an average of 2 children per family, and Muslims have more.
02:35 American demographers have calculated this, there are ever-increasing numbers of Muslims in Europe.
02:40 This can be problematic, because as I said, 20% of them believe literally in what Islam commands
02:47 and want to carry that out. These people want to call the shots over others.
02:52 There is no religion that wants to go that far with domination as Islam.
02:57 What in the quote is wrong is that Muslims will draw to the countryside.
03:02 Islam is primarily an urban religion.” As Mr. Jansen says.
03:08 He further says: “In the Netherlands, politics and religion in principle are separated,
03:13 but in Islam this is not so. In Islamic countries the secret service can take action
03:18 when imams in sermons proclaim things that are not appreciated.
03:23 In the Netherlands this in principle is not so. In Dutch mosques anything can be said
03:28 without the state being able to interfere. This is why many Muslims,
03:33 especially radical leaders, move to Europe.” According to Mr. Jansen.
03:38
03:47 Then page 4, first paragraph, and that’s the quote in which professor Israeli is cited,
03:57 then Mr. Jansen says: “Professor Israeli bases this statement on expressions of Sayyid Qutb.”
04:05 Judge: I do not know how to exactly to pronounce it but it’s spelled q-u-t-b.
04:16 [Mr. Jansen continues] “A prominent man, the most widely read Muslim writer ever.
04:21 He said that the Muslims have tried twice to win the battle
04:25 and that now the third round, the final battle, is being fought.
04:29 On a question from the prosecutor on what powers would be behind this invasion attempt,
04:35 I can not give an explicit answer, but I do can point to the document ‘Le Projet’ [The Project]
04:42 from the 30s or 40s of the 20th century. This document comes among others
04:48 from the father of Tariq Ramadan. In this is stated
04:52 that Muslims must make use of Western freedoms.
04:56 Once you have a large group, you automatically get the 20% who will fight for Islam,
05:03 [who] will attempt to impose the rules of Islam. As an example, I can mention
05:09 that there are Muslim countries that do not take [their] people back.”
05:16 Then over to page 4, quote “The Muslim population doubles every generation”.
05:25 Asked about this, Mr. Jansen says: “On this I cannot really say anything.
05:30 There are articles stating how large the percentage of Muslims within a society must be
05:36 in order to expect problems.”
05:40 Further to page 4, third paragraph from the bottom, quote: “Islam is a violent religion”.
05:48 Mr. Jansen: “Where the Bible merely contains dreams or stories containing violence,
05:53 the Qur’an contains commands to violence in the imperative.
05:58 It is an obligation, and the reward is great. I can quote Roger Scruton about this:
06:05 ‘Christianity is a religion of failure, but became a success, Islam is a religion of success,
06:12 but leads to monstrosities, and thus to failure.’” As Mr. Jansen stated.
06:18 “Fortunately not all Muslims take the command to violence seriously, but some unfortunately do.
06:25 There is an expression: ‘first a warning with the tongue, then a spanking by the hand
06:32 and finally murder with the sword’. I will look up for you [the Magistrate]
06:38 exactly where that is stated. A Muslim will undoubtedly say that it’s in the Quran.”
06:47 Then to page 5, quote: “This book incites to hatred and murder”. Mr. Jansen:
06:56 “Yes. Anyone who reads ten pages in the Quran will see that this is true,
07:00 as long as it is only about unbelievers.”
07:04 Then on page 6 of the summons, on the Quran and the size of the Donald Duck [comic].
07:12 Mr. Jansen answers: “There of course are verses that are not hateful.
07:16 Care for the orphan, giving of alms. If you were to leave out all hateful verses from the Quran,
07:23 it would be considerably thinner. Then about one quarter to one-fifth would remain.”
07:32 Next quote, page 6, “The Quran is not a dead letter”. Mr. Jansen says:
07:39 “Every Muslim father wants his son to learn the Quran by heart.
07:44 In everyday parlance the Quran is often quoted. If you ask a Muslim
07:50 whether Sharia law must be applied, he will say ‘Yes’. When you then ask
07:55 if a thief’s hand then must be cut off, he sometimes says ‘No’,
08:00 because he doesn’t know that this is in the Sharia. If you say that it’s in the Sharia,
08:05 he then will say, ‘Well, then so be it’. For resistance against the Shariah is apostasy,
08:12 and for that, according to the Sharia, the death penalty is required. Historians of religion
08:18 will say that the religion is what believers make of it. But Muslims believe that Islam
08:24 — thus everything written — is valid, and exists without possibility of influence by its followers.
08:34. On questions by the prosecutor that he understood that in Indonesia
08:38 a mild form of Islam is adhered to, I say that there also Islam becomes ever more strict.
08:47 The imams there say the same as in other Muslim countries, more headscarves appear there,
08:52 and to take the wind out the sails of the fundamentalist Muslim groups,
08:57 the [Indonesian] government is taking Islamizing measures. Therein lies a danger.”
09:06 Next quote from page 12 of the summons, on Moroccan boys, and then the quote:
09:17 “They beat up people because of their sexual orientation” Mr. Jansen says:
09:24 “It’s difficult to respond to that. I mention as example a fatwa issued by an imam, Al-Moumni.
09:32 When a young boy asked whether in the context of jihad one may commit debauchery with girls,
09:37 he answered that it is better to just get married. He then does not explicitly forbid it.
09:44 Many Moroccan boys often are unconsciously busy with their religion.
09:49 There are known examples of banging on the windows of non-Muslims in the neighborhood.
09:54 This cannot really be called criminal, but eventually the non-Muslims will move out.
10:00 Homosexuality may not become public. In Iran there is the death penalty for it,
10:06 and this is also carried out. Al-Moumni said gay sexuality is a disease,
10:13 thus you cannot help it. Which he himself found progressive.
10:18 The Quran says that sodomy is a grave sin, worse than adultery.
10:25 Who commits sodomy must be slain, and lesbian behavior is equivalent to adultery,
10:30 for this is also the death penalty. You can find this for instance in the book
10:35 ‘Reliance of the Traveller’, a standard work on the Sharia for Muslims.”
10:43 Then back to page 3, the quote, “Their behavior stems from their religion and culture”,
10:54 again on Moroccan boys. Mr. Jansen responds:
10:59 “That’s somewhat correct. This involves in particular the efforts at harassment.
11:05 Banging on windows and throwing of stones. This is being done primarily by brats,
11:10 but their parents approve of this behavior. This behavior is insufficient to take up arms against,
11:15 but is enough to make people move out. We would love it if we could find something
11:21 outside of Islam which explains the behavior, but Islam approves it,
11:26 and provides a justification, also when it comes to snatching purses.
11:31 When the Magistrate asks me whether a Moroccan boy will ever snatch a purse of a Muslim,
11:37 I say that this is possible, but I consider that rather unlikely.”
11:52 The hearing continues on the film Fitna. On this Mr. Jansen says the following.
11:58 “I’ve seen this film in the studio in Hilversum, on request by the NOS (broadcaster).
12:03 I was asked whether I wanted to comment, whether the translations were accurate
12:07 and if I ever seen the images before. I do not dare to guarantee that the version I’ve seen
12:14 later in edited or photoshopped form started to circulate on the Internet.
12:20 Whether the Sura translations are adequate?” Mr. Jansen: “Yes.
12:25 Sura 8 verse 60: the singer in the film only repeats the word ‘terrorizing’
12:33 while in that Quran-verse it only appears once.
12:38 Terrorizing,” according to Mr. Jansen, “is a correct translation of ‘tuhibuna’.
12:45 You of course can always try a synonym such as ‘strike fear’ or ‘make scared’,
12:50 but an Arab will translate this word as ‘terrorizing’.
12:56 How do I know images are shown of what apparently are imams?
13:03 I haven’t seen their diploma, but the clothing and ways of talking raise
13:08 the impression in me that those are imams. The book shown with oriental writing
13:14 is of course the Quran.
13:18 It disappoints me that the Prosecutor did not have this researched well in advance.”
13:24 Mr. Jansen continues: “In Muslim circles I have never seen anyone give the Hitler salute.”
13:29 And then further also says: “Statements about Jews and violence against Jews
13:34 are not uncommon in the Muslim world. These statements are not out of context.
13:40 Every believer finds of his own belief that it is superior. If you do not pursue Islam,
13:46 then you are a bad person. If you as a Muslim leave Islam, there is the death penalty.
13:52 Is a criminal court does not assign this punishment, an individual must execute this.
13:59 Allah has ordered that Islam should be spread globally, if necessary by arms.
14:05 Whether I can mention sources for this?” Judge: Then Mr. Jansen mentions
14:09 Sura 2:16, 4:89, 9:36. “Fortunately, many Muslims are too decent to execute this.
14:21 Christianity is less obligational.” Judge: Mr. Jansen talks about preaching the word to all peoples.
14:29 Next question, whether violence against women is common practice in Islam.
14:33 Mr. Jansen says: “You’d have to ask a sociologist. The Quran does state
14:38 that if you’re afraid that your wife does something that is not allowed, you must hit her.
14:55 Sura 4:34. There are men who take this seriously, and preachers proclaim this verse.”
Texte anglais de la video 3
[00:00:00.000] “The West dominates, but according to Muslims, Islam should do this,” as Mr. Jansen says.
[00:00:08.000] Whether radical groups have any influence on mosques in the Netherlands? Mr. Jansen replies:
[00:00:15.000] “Yes, especially Saudi Arabian Islam, Wahhabism, and the radical Salafists,
[00:00:23.000] of that there is an increasing influence. I base that on newspaper articles,
[00:00:29.000] reports from the AIVD [Dutch Intelligence Service], but also on conversations
[00:00:33.000] with people in that world, for example Abdul Jabbar van de Ven. He told me proudly
[00:00:39.000] that he studied in Saudi Arabia and pleads for the introduction of Sharia law
[00:00:45.000] and a ban on music. For that matter, this can be traced back
[00:00:49.000] to a statement by Muhammad.” And then a quote:
[00:00:54.000] “I have been sent to remove the lute, the jar and the cross.” Mr. Jansen continues:
[00:01:00.000] “I also talked to two guys who make a television program called ‘Sal and Ab’.
[00:01:06.000] They too were proud that they had been to Saudi Arabia.”
[00:01:13.000] Up until this point the questions asked were in response to specific citations in the subpoena.
[00:01:20.000] There now follow a few general questions. First questions by the Prosecutor.
[00:01:28.000] On questions by the prosecutor, Mr. Jansen says the following:
[00:01:33.000] Asked whether in the Muslim world there is talk of secularism, Mr. Jansen says:
[00:01:38.000] “No, the opposite is true. I know there are friends of Islam who claim that there is
[00:01:45.000] a slow extinction of the faith, but I think they are wrong.
[00:01:50.000] The mood currently is more religious than ever. When I was in Cairo in 1966,
[00:01:56.000] there was not a headscarf to be seen. Now there is not woman seen without a headscarf.
[00:02:01.000] It is a symbol of the introduction of the Sharia. There are libraries full of books
[00:02:06.000] that defend my position and only a few shelves that say there is secularism.
[00:02:12.000] Those few shelves, however, are in charge in the Netherlands.
[00:02:16.000] They get the money for scientific research.”
[00:02:21.000] Mr. Jansen continues: “You ask me about the separation between religion and politics.
[00:02:26.000] Muslims know that they are two different things, but that’s about all.
[00:02:31.000] You must also keep in mind that at the beginning of Islam, in Muhammad’s days,
[00:02:36.000] society was stateless. In Islam, politics and religion therefore went hand in hand.
[00:02:44.000] The sultans were always in control. There was some rope-pulling with religious leaders,
[00:02:50.000] but there could not be any distance between religious and secular leaders.”
[00:02:56.000] Judge: I must read the word ‘and’ thus ‘religious and secular’
[00:03:05.000] “The sultan is the boss, and the imams take the place of parliament.
[00:03:11.000] In Iran this is different, because there the ayatollahs are in control.”
[00:03:19.000] “The Magistrate tells me my name appears in the summons on page 10.”
[00:03:30.000] Mr. Jansen then says: “This quote is the headline of an article I wrote,
[00:03:35.000] Judge, and I didn’t know in advance that this would end up in the film” [Fitna].
[00:03:42.000] Then a question by the Prosecutor: “The Prosecutor asks me how it could happen
[00:03:48.000] that the medieval Christians and Jews could have a separate status.”
[00:03:53.000] Mr. Jansen relies: “I refer to sura 9:29. Christians and Jews may temporarily,
[00:03:58.000] Judge, for a fee, be exempt from Islamic rules.
[00:04:02.000] It is so, however, that they can not be exempted from tax.
[00:04:07.000] One must continue to admit that Islam is superior. This is symbolized by the collector of the tax,
[00:04:13.000] Who strikes a blow on the neck as a symbol of decapitation.”
[00:04:18.000] Mr. Jansen continues: “I know the friends of Islam use this example as a sign of tolerance,
[00:04:24.000] but rather it is not, according to my lights. It remains a symbol of Islamic superiority.
[00:04:31.000] It is the myth of Andalusia that Christians, Jews and Muslims can live together.
[00:04:37.000] Weinstein, a classicist in Dublin, wrote about this.
[00:04:42.000] This myth came to live in Russia at the time of the Tsars,
[00:04:48.000] to make it possible for Jews to study [at the university].
[00:04:53.000] In this context I point out a study by Rodney Stark, who has calculated
[00:04:59.000] that there were no fewer pogroms in Andalusia than elsewhere in Europe.
[00:05:06.000] The Prosecutor asks me about Granada, whether that was the peak of the Jewish flowering
[00:05:12.000] within Islam. I do no know so much about that,” answers Mr. Jansen.
[00:05:20.000] Then there are a number of questions by the defense [Mr. Moszkowicz]
[00:05:27.000] On questions by Mr. Moszkowicz: “You tell me that a number of Dutch Islam experts,
[00:05:31.000] including Professor Leemhuis, have circulated a so-called fact sheet.
[00:05:37.000] I had a quick look on this fact sheet, but there are so many spelling errors in it
[00:05:41.000] that I didn’t pay much attention to it. You tell me that the fact sheet says
[00:05:45.000] that in the film Fitna, sura 47:4 is only partially quoted, and thus out of context.”
[00:05:54.000] The response by Mr. Jansen: “That it is partially quoted is correct,
[00:05:59.000] following the quote in the film, there should be quoted that when the opponents are overcome,
[00:06:05.000] they should be sold as slaves. The second half of this verse in my eyes
[00:06:10.000] Does not make the first part less bad. The whole verse says nothing more than
[00:06:15.000] that you only stop cutting off heads once the enemy surrenders,
[00:06:21.000] or has converted to Islam. It thus is not taken out of context.”
[00:06:27.000] Thus Mr. Jansen, and he illustrates: “In sermons and in general by Muslims,
[00:06:33.000] this verse is quoted as is done in Fitna. That is, only the first half.
[00:06:39.000] There are also two verse-enumerations, see for example the translation
[00:06:44.000] of the Quran by Kramers I edited, and scholars from Kufa,
[00:06:48.000] who view this as one verse, but scholars form Basra see it as two verses.
[00:06:53.000] Sura 47:4, as quoted in Fitna, and Sura 47:5, which is what follows.”
[00:07:05.000] Mr. Moszkowicz seemingly continues, and then Mr. Jansen says:
[00:07:10.000] “You tell me that on the fact sheet is stated that in Sura 2:256 states
[00:07:18.000] that there is no compulsion in the religion. When the Quran was revealed in Mecca
[00:07:27.000] it called for freedom for the followers of Muhammad. When the Quran
[00:07:32.000] was revealed in Medina, death to the infidels was preached.
[00:07:36.000] Ultimately, that last position in Medina has won. As time progressed,
[00:07:42.000] the original texts were annulled by later revelations. This is called “abrogation”.
[00:07:51.000] Leemhuis [involved with that ‘fact sheet’] should know that Sura 2:256 has been abrogated.
[00:07:57.000] For Muslims, there is no discussion about this. I will forward you later the
[00:08:02.000] the location of this abrogation, but you should also ask Leemhuis, under oath.”
[00:08:08.000] Then Dr. Jansen in this respect sent a letter to the Magistrate
[00:08:20.000] with respect to that Quran verse 2:256 “There is no compulsion in religion”
[00:08:26.000] in which he gives a detailed information about that verse.
[00:08:30.000] Do you want me to also read out that later? [Mr. Moszkowicz: “Please.”]
[00:08:34.000] All right, I first continue the hearing, then I go to that explanation.
[00:08:43.000] Mr. Jansen has just said, this is an abrogation, and then the next point
[00:08:54.000] from the fact sheet as shown by Mr. Moszkowicz, says that
[00:08:58.000] the Quran also calls to peace and reconciliation. For instance in the verse 2:84,
[00:09:05.000] “You shall not shed each other’s blood”. Mr. Jansen says concerning this:
[00:09:09.000] “That is not correct, this verse applies only to Muslims among themselves.”
[00:09:14.000] And regarding Sura 10:25 Mr. Jansen says
[00:09:19.000] — there it says ‘God calls for the house of peace’ —
[00:09:25.000] “The residence or the house of peace is Islam, in opposition to the house of war.
[00:09:30.000] This verse thus means that you must become Muslim and should come and live
[00:09:36.000] within the Muslim community.” Then Sura 2:224,
[00:09:44.000] “Make not Allah an impediment to … making peace between the people”.
[00:09:54.000] And Mr. Jansen responds on this:
[00:09:58.000] “I read this complete verse now in the Quran I have with me.
[00:10:03.000] There it’s about an oath made in haste. This does not have to prevent you
[00:10:08.000] from still doing the good. Usually then it is about too quickly banishing your wife.
[00:10:13.000] I do not see the word ‘peacemaking’, I’d rather translate the word as
[00:10:18.000] ‘make it up again’ or ‘repair’.
[00:10:22.000] Then Mr. Jansen is shown Sura 3:103, “Think of God’s grace to you
[00:10:30.000] when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together, and you became brothers by His grace”.
[00:10:37.000] Mr. Jansen says: “According to the commentaries, this is said against the various groups in Medina. It addresses to Muslims. ‘Becoming brothers’ means nothing more
[00:10:49.000] than the conversion to Islam. ‘Think of God’s grace’ usually means
[00:10:53.000] ‘read the Quran’. It is an internal Muslim verse.”
[00:11:01.000] Mr. Jansen continues: “As Western philologist you may think ‘I use these verses
[00:11:06.000] to illustrate the peacefulness of Islam’, and maybe Leemhuis also sincerely means this.
[00:11:14.000] It is important however that these texts are addressed to Muslims, and it’s about
[00:11:19.000] what Muslims think of them. I do not know any verses,” he says,
[00:11:25.000] “which call for peace with non-Muslims. Co-existence is not in the Islamic dictionary.
[00:11:32.000] In practice it does happen, but only when all the armies of the non-Muslims
[00:11:36.000] — for example the armies of the West — are stronger.”
[00:11:40.000] Thus the hearing of Mr. Jansen, also undersigned by him.
Texte anglais de la video 4
[00:00:00.000] the Quran also calls to peace and reconciliation. For instance in the verse 2:84,
[00:00:05.000] “You shall not shed each other’s blood”. Mr. Jansen says concerning this:
[00:00:09.000] “That is not correct, this verse applies only to Muslims among themselves.”
[00:00:14.000] And regarding Sura 10:25 Mr. Jansen says
[00:00:19.000] — there it says ‘God calls for the house of peace’ —
[00:00:25.000] “The residence or the house of peace is Islam, in opposition to the house of war.
[00:00:30.000] This verse thus means that you must become Muslim and should come and live
[00:00:36.000] within the Muslim community.” Then Sura 2:224,
[00:00:44.000] “Make not Allah an impediment to … making peace between the people”.
[00:00:54.000] And Mr. Jansen responds on this:
[00:00:58.000] “I read this complete verse now in the Quran I have with me.
[00:01:03.000] There it’s about an oath made in haste. This does not have to prevent you
[00:01:08.000] from still doing the good. Usually then it is about too quickly banishing your wife.
[00:01:13.000] I do not see the word ‘peacemaking’, I’d rather translate the word as
[00:01:18.000] ‘make it up again’ or ‘repair’.
[00:01:22.000] Then Mr. Jansen is shown Sura 3:103, “Think of God’s grace to you
[00:01:30.000] when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together,
[00:01:34.000] and you became brothers by His grace”.
[00:01:37.000] Mr. Jansen says: “According to the commentaries, this is said against the various groups in Medina.
[00:01:42.000] It addresses to Muslims. ‘Becoming brothers’ means nothing more
[00:01:49.000] than the conversion to Islam. ‘Think of God’s grace’ usually means
[00:01:53.000] ‘read the Quran’. It is an internal Muslim verse.”
[00:02:01.000] Mr. Jansen continues: “As Western philologist you may think ‘I use these verses
[00:02:06.000] to illustrate the peacefulness of Islam’, and maybe Leemhuis also sincerely means this.
[00:02:14.000] It is important however that these texts are addressed to Muslims, and it’s about
[00:02:19.000] what Muslims think of them. I do not know any verses,” he says,
[00:02:25.000] “which call for peace with non-Muslims. Co-existence is not in the Islamic dictionary.
[00:02:32.000] In practice it does happen, but only when all the armies of the non-Muslims
[00:02:36.000] — for example the armies of the West — are stronger.”
[00:02:40.000] Thus the hearing of Mr. Jansen, also undersigned by him.
[00:02:50.000] Well, then there is a comment made by the magistrate that in consultation with you the fact sheet is not attached as a writ.
[00:03:01.000] Then I go to the note by Professor Jansen on the Quranic verse 2:256
[00:03:11.000] which was mentioned in the hearing, and on May 10 2010
[00:03:14.000] in what appears to be an email, he wrote to the magistrate in Amsterdam.
[00:03:28.000] 1. Memorandum on the Qur’anic verse 2:256, “There is no compulsion in religion”.
[00:03:38.000] Islam teaches that this verse is ‘abrogated’, i.e. ‘canceled’ by later revelations.
[00:03:44.000] Note: Sura 2, where this Quran verse occurs, is according to friend and foe alike the first sura
[00:03:50.000] that was revealed in Medina. I consider it impossible that the complainants
[00:03:55.000] or the Prosecutor could find an Islamic lawyer or an academic Arabist who contradicts this.
[00:04:01.000] I regard it therefore as superfluous to spend additional work, time and attention
[00:04:07.000] to this issue of dating and chronology. The dating of Sura 2 is widely undisputed.
[00:04:13.000] See for example W. Montgomery Watt, Introduction to the Qur’an’
[00:04:18.000] Page 2:20, top: “All chronological classifications consider sura 2 as the first of the Medinan suras”.
[00:04:34.000] And Jansen then follows with this note: Also the Quran translation by Fred Leemhuis
[00:04:39.000] states that Sura 9 dates from Medina (p. 129), and was revealed after Sura 5.
[00:04:44.000] Of Sura 5, Leemhuis then says that this was handed down after 48 (p. 77), and so on.
[00:04:51.000] Also according to Leemhuis, Sura 2 thus is older than Sura 9.
[00:04:57.000] Then Jansen continues: Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, established himself in Medina in 622,
[00:05:02.000] where he died in 632. Sura 9, according to friend and foe alike dates from a later phase
[00:05:09.000] of that period in Medina, in any case, according to most scholars, after the conquest of Mecca
[00:05:15.000] by the Muslims in 630. There are even scholars who believe that Sura 9
[00:05:20.000] is the last Sura that was revealed in Medina. Eventual contradictions between Sura 9 and Sura 2
[00:05:27.000] are therefore decided, in the sense that the rules as laid down in Sura 9,
[00:05:32.000] must be the prevailing rules of Islam and the Sharia.
[00:05:37.000] How can we be so sure that this is so? In the ‘Reliance of the Traveller’,
[00:05:43.000] the oft-mentioned English-Arabic Sharia handbook by N.H.M. Keller, we read on p.629:
[00:05:54.000] “When two primary texts seem to contend, [the judge] gives precedence to:
[00:06:00.000] those which supercede previous rulings.”
[00:06:04.000] The word ‘previous’ here is crucial for the understanding. This book, ‘Reliance’,
[00:06:08.000] I mention here only because of the fact that in this case it is already more or less known,
[00:06:13.000] but there no handbooks on Islam and the Sharia exist that are made by Muslims for Muslims
[00:06:19.000] that on this matter state anything different.
[00:06:23.000] The principle of abrogation is explicated in the Qur’an itself; it is not the invention of outsiders.
[00:06:29.000] Qur’an 2:106, in the translation of Leemhuis and then a quote:
[00:06:35.000] “Whatever of our revelations that we abolish or cause to be forgotten we replace by
[00:06:40.000] something better or similar”. End quote.
[00:06:44.000] ‘Abolish’ is the word with which in both Leemhuis as Kramers clarify as “abrogate”.
[00:06:53.000] Qur’an 10:52: “God abolishes”.
[00:07:00.000] Sura 9 dates from the period in Medina, which means: 622-632 AD.
[00:07:07.000] It is not the first sura of that period, because Sura 2 is considered as such.
[00:07:12.000] Sura 9 in time is thus after Sura 2, and Sura 9 consequently abrogates the rules
[00:07:18.000] contained in Sura 2, when these are in conflict with provisions contained in Sura 9.
[00:07:25.000] Sura 9:29 in the translation of Leemhuis, contains the phrase
[00:07:31.000] “Fight against those who do not believe in God” and who “Do not forbid what God
[00:07:36.000] and his Messenger forbid.” This forbidding cannot be made consistent with
[00:07:42.000] “there is no compulsion in religion”, of 2:256. Forbidding, after all, implies coercion.
[00:07:50.000] The imperative with which verse 9:29 begins, ‘qaatiluu’,
[00:07:69.000] is better translated as “waged war upon”. The root ‘qtl’, which the word is related to,
[00:08:05.000] means ‘killing’. The specific grammatical form being used here, according to grammarians,
[00:08:12.000] could just as well be based on a meaning such as “trying to kill each other”.
[00:08:20.000] Also here, neither the complaining party nor the Prosecutor will find an Islamic legal scholar
[00:08:26.000] or an academic Arabist who contradicts this. Thus says Mr. Jansen. And he continues:
[00:08:33.000] That this struggle or war at a given moment ends, is in practice correct.
[00:08:39.000] In theory the Islamic legal scholars and scholars of Islam nonetheless establish
[00:08:43.000] that the duty to wage this struggle will remain until the Last Day.
[00:08:47.000] In the ‘Reliance’, the author states on page 602, the last lines of the page,
[00:08:53.000] that the obligation to wage Jihad in the English text: “the time and place for it”,
[00:08:59.000] remains until the return of Jesus, in the English text: “the final descent of Jesus,
[00:09:05.000] upon whom be peace”. Also here, the complaining party or the Prosecutor
[00:09:11.000] will not find an Islamic legal scholar or scholar of Islam or academic Arabist
[00:09:15.000] who contradicts it. The Islamic legal scholars and scholars of Islam
[00:09:20.000] therefore traditionally make a sharp distinction between the
[00:09:24.000] ‘the House of Peace’ and ‘the House of War’.
[00:09:28.000] This distinction is the foundation of Islamic international law.
[00:09:34.000] About this dichotomy an extensive literature exists. I can hardly imagine that an academic Arabist
[00:09:28.000] or an Islamic legal scholar or a scholar of Islam desires to publicly deceive a court on this matter.
[00:09:50.000]
[00:09:54.000] Then I get to the last paragraph, and its title is “In the issue that correction
[00:10:01.000] of un-Islamic behavior should be done first verbally and then by force”:
[00:10:08.000] From the canonical tradition-collection of Muslim, 9th century AD…
[00:10:17.000] A very comprehensive English quotation, would you want me to read that?
[00:10:22.000] Moszkowicz: “Not the English quotation, according to me.”
[00:10:27.000] Then I will say here what Professor Jansen said about this:
[00:10:33.000] The announcement of hand, tongue and heart is also in the canonical collection
[00:10:38.000] of Abuu Daawuud: Kitaab as-Salaat (Al-Khaalidii)
[00:10:45.000] “Who sees a forbidden thing he can change with his hand, let him change it
[00:10:52.000] with his hand: and if he cannot, then with his tongue, and if he cannot,
[00:10:58.000] then with his heart, and that is the weakest form of faith.” End quote.
[00:11:04.000] I am prepared if necessary — according to Professor Jansen — when the Prosecutor
[00:11:08.000] or the complaining party disputes this, to further elaborate these issues.
[00:11:14.000] And he still has a closing comment, and that final point is:
[00:11:19.000] At last I can inform you about my surprise that a Dutch court steeps itself so much
[00:11:24.000] in the details of religious and exegetical issues. This is contrary to everything
[00:11:29.000] I have been taught in elementary school, college and at the university
[00:11:33.000] about the separation of powers and the separation between religion and politics,
[00:11:37.000] between church and state, etc. — Thus said Professor Jansen,
[00:11:42.000] with all kinds of esteem, Amsterdam, May 10, 2010. That … Professor Jansen.
[00:11:53.000] Moszkowicz: “Thank you very much. President, with gratitude for what has already happened,
[00:11:58.000] there is a letter, and I’d like to request you, at this time also to read out,
[00:12:06.000] because the representatives of complainants assumed a particular relationship
[00:12:10.000] between Mr. Jansen and my client Mr. Wilders, there has been a correspondence about it,
[00:12:17.000] and on May 10, 2010, the Magistrate, Mr. Martens wrote a letter
[00:12:23.000] to Mister Pestman [lawyer for the complainants] about the alleged link,
[00:12:27.000] and that letter is not long, but I would like to disclose it.
[00:12:34.000] Yes, is this is a letter that belongs to the pleadings at this time?
[00:12:39.000] Umm, yes, it is in my file, and then I think it also is in yours.
[00:12:44.000] Okay, we will have a look at it.
[00:12:48.000] Umm… just an announcement of order here first, perhaps because I currently am doing less,
[00:12:53.000] but I’m starting to get it a little colder, is it just me or …
[00:12:58.000] it gets a little cooler here, okay, well above there [public] they also say that,
[00:13:01.000] so we will try to ask to do something about that later, my proposal is now to pause now for lunch,
[00:13:07.000] I’m taking a look at the members of the OM if that is okay, the defense, okay? Yes?
[00:13:14.000] Then we’ll pause until 13:00, I urge you all to be back in time,
[00:13:20.000] thus at least before 13:00, and then we will continue reading the files,
[00:13:23.000] and will in the meanwhile also have taken a look at your request.
[00:13:27.000] Moszkowicz: “It is of May 10…”
[00:13:29.000] I have made a note, yes.
